The Pastor's Spouse

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Rob and Jason, along with special guest Bethany, discuss the unique challenges and roles of pastors and their spouses. They explore personal experiences, the importance of support systems, and practical ways to encourage one another in ministry. The conversation emphasizes the need for balance, understanding, and community in navigating the complexities of church leadership and family life.

Resource: Alongside Ministry Wives

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:00)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. We are so glad that you have taken a few moments out of your day to just find out what's going on, to share, to listen in. We've got a great topic today, but Rob, I know you had a big morning of excitement. Why don't you bring us up to speed on the wonderful morning you've had so far.

Rob Paterson (00:22)
Yeah, you I don't know ⁓ if our listeners actually are interested in all of my maladies and health concerns or, you know, whatever, but I, my, my non operated on hip has been getting progressively sore. Nine years ago, they said that I'd likely have to have that one replaced within a few years after the first hip replacement. And ⁓

Bethany Paterson (00:26)
Thank

Rob Paterson (00:46)
And so anyway, it's just been getting sore and I saw my surgeon a couple weeks ago and he's like, let's try an injection. So I had to get up at five this morning, be ⁓ up in Worcester in a surgical suite, you know, at like 6.15 this morning. I was the first thing on the docket and they used an X-ray and put this huge needle into my hip capsule and gave me some steroids. So that ⁓ was my glorious morning.

Jason Allison (01:10)
So you can jump like Air Jordan now, right?

Rob Paterson (01:13)
⁓ they,

you know, it's funny. They, they keep saying weird things to me. Like, like you can do what you want, but don't go home and push Mo two acres or don't go home and like cut like, you know, firewood for seven hours. Like I've ever done any of those things ever, even one time in my life, you know? so apparently I can do what I want, but they really kind of want me taking it easy for the next couple of days till it kind of settles down. And then they want me doing stuff to kind of move it all around and whatever. So.

Jason Allison (01:28)
Hahaha.

See, and here I was just about to invite you down to chop firewood for me tonight. guess we can't do that now. well.

Rob Paterson (01:46)
Ha

Yeah, that's so good.

Jason Allison (01:50)
Yeah, I actually have to mow this afternoon. I haven't had to mow in like six weeks. but, I have to mow now because I just got back from a trip yesterday afternoon and I get on a plane tomorrow for Baltimore. So gotta, gotta make this all happen while I'm here. But fortunately, whether it's nice, you know,

Rob Paterson (02:06)
Yeah.

That's yeah, that's so good. And I love this Jason, cause then I think like it, it makes sense to point this out, ⁓ to our listeners. You know, when you talk about that, I mean, you take some of the things that we, we talk about or have talked about, along with like a whole bunch of other life experiences and tools that you have learned, been trained in, developed yourself or whatever.

And I mean, literally you go around like this part of the country serving pastors and churches, which, you know, like, which is what we're trying to do as an extension of the church talk project and this podcast where we just say, Hey, we really, really, really care about pastors and churches. And we want to do everything we can to help encourage, equip, and engage with, you know, pastors and leaders in local churches. So the local church can be better. And I that.

Jason Allison (02:58)
Yeah, well, and and the

cool thing is I'm hopping on a plane tomorrow to actually spend the weekend with someone who sent in a suggestion or request. So that's what we're going to do today, right? I mean, when you ask us something, we do actually respond and ⁓ someone that I just it just so happens the timing it really wasn't planned that way, but.

⁓ this, our loyal listener, sent in a question or a topic basically for us to discuss. And, so yeah, that's what we're going to do. And we even brought a special guest in for this conversation.

Rob Paterson (03:31)
Woo, you know,

I mean, we had to call a lot of favors in to get this guest. This was kind of a last minute kind of miracle, hail Mary, to pull this one off. ⁓

Jason Allison (03:36)
We did. We did.

Yeah, I know it's

going to cost us double or triple.

Bethany Paterson (03:44)
You guys are ridiculous.

Rob Paterson (03:46)
That's awesome. So Jason, I want to read the thing that you sent me when this request came in. And again, we want to encourage all of our listeners. If you have something you're thinking about wrestling with, we really, really, really care. We want to hear if it's something that we could add value to, whether that's in more of a two-on-one or one-on-one setting, or whether we talked about it on the podcast.

I would be really excited about that. here it is, the role of a pastor's wife and how pastors can serve their wives well with their unique positions. then there was another suggestion along with this and it was funny because when you sent me these suggestions, you said to me, hey, I like the other one. I don't want to touch the pastor's wife one with a 10 foot pole. You didn't say it that strong. I'm just sort of.

Jason Allison (04:34)
No.

Rob Paterson (04:35)
embellishing a little bit. and I'm like, man, no, that's the one I want to talk about. Although I think we would both say acknowledging that, you know, there's various theological beliefs among our listeners, some would use that term pastors wife, you and I would say pastor spouse, because we know plenty of men and women who serve as pastors. And so we really do care about and want to help and equip all so you know, the ideas don't change, you know, depending on this.

Jason Allison (05:01)
Mm-mm.

Rob Paterson (05:02)
But but you also said something I thought was hysterical. You were like, and plus, you know, your wife and my wife are not the typical pastor's wives, which we we know. And we think because we know these people very well, you know, like we've lived, we live with them every day and have done that for a long, time. But the big favor we called in and so for the first time in the 87 years, the Church Talk podcast has been in existence.

My wife, Bethany Patterson, is joining us to have this conversation about how we serve each other and how we can serve our spouses in ways that are helpful and life-giving.

Jason Allison (05:39)
Yes, yes.

And I think to kick it off, Bethany, welcome. We really are glad that you are here. Well, I'm glad I can't. don't want to speak for Rob, but he's the one who actually invited you. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's glad to. But maybe just to get things started, like just tell us like how you came to know Jesus and like just, you know, 30 second, three minute version, whatever of of your testimony so that our listeners get to know you a little bit.

Bethany Paterson (05:44)
Thank you.

Yeah

Rob Paterson (05:48)
Hahaha.

Bethany Paterson (06:06)
Absolutely. Honestly, I don't know that there's, and I'm one of those that I don't know that I've ever known life without Jesus, right? I was raised in the church, kind of one of those born on a Friday and church on Sunday kind of deals, right? My personal walk with the Lord started, I was nine years old and we had a Bible school, a puppet team that had traveled to our church. ⁓ so during that week of Bible school, I

made the decision to follow Jesus personal. And they did. and they've always held a special place in my heart. I actually traveled with that team then for four years later on in life, but, or later on in my childhood rather. yeah, just, I've never not known life without Jesus. the call to ministry was something

Jason Allison (06:33)
So puppets led you to Jesus is what I just, okay.

Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (06:53)
that actually as I was preparing to go on to college, so I just super involved in my local church all throughout my elementary and high school years and enough so that two, three different ones of our church friends had at different points taken me aside and said, when you go to college, it wouldn't at all surprise me if you come home married to a pastor. ⁓

Jason Allison (07:12)
You

Bethany Paterson (07:13)
Now, what was funny though was my senior pastor at that church took me aside at one point after having overheard a number of these conversations and said, now the way he said it, and I don't know if he'd remember this, but the way he said it was, listen here, if I were you, I wouldn't settle for second place. He said, I think you need to get ordained. And I went, well, I'm not sure what your wife would think about what you just said. But there we go. Now you fast forward, we get into our college years and.

Jason Allison (07:27)
Wow. ⁓

Bethany Paterson (07:38)
at Indiana Wesleyan University, you know, surrounded by plenty of opportunity to marry myself a pastor, if that was what I was specifically looking for. But I knew, every time that invitation, that word was spoken over me, even in like junior high school, junior, senior years of high school, my response pretty consistently was, hmm, but I know what goes into that. And I'm not really all that interested, right? Well, then,

Jason Allison (07:52)
Yeah.

Yeah, I don't blame you.

Bethany Paterson (08:02)
you get into our high school year or college years rather and I looking back realized really the only the only fellows that I took real significant interest in were all in that Christian ministries track. It wasn't a qualification that I had set up ahead of time it was just you know those were the kinds of people that that I found most compelling really and and and so there was one night and I don't talk about this super often but there was one night a group of us gals who again were all

either dating Christian Ministries majors or about to, guess, a bunch of us sitting around having a conversation that where we each acknowledge, now, and mind you, this is a group of gals all raised in the same denomination, had all kind of seen that pastor's wife image in a very specific way in our growing up years, either through our local church or maybe our history. Some of us were

Jason Allison (08:48)
Yeah. ⁓

Bethany Paterson (08:52)
either children or grandchildren of pastors. And it really kind of got to see that up close. And one of the gals in the circle says, ⁓

I can't believe I'm dating a guy in the Christian Ministries major. She said, I don't like small children. I don't look good in a skirt. I never wear my hair in a bun and I don't play piano. Like, I mean, was just like this very, no, what am I doing? She said, and it was interesting because now this, okay, so this will date me, but this was about the same time there was a version of the movie, Little Women that had come out and,

Jason Allison (09:10)
She didn't hit any of the qualifications of a pastor's wife.

Rob Paterson (09:12)
Ha ha

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bethany Paterson (09:24)
sort of been back in the probably early 90s that this particular version of the movie and one that we'd all seen and ⁓ in that same circle of girls the one says she quotes a line from the movie where the character who the character Joe it's it's a scene where one of the gals had gotten her hands smacked by the the schoolmaster my mother is writing a sternly worded letter to the schoolmaster where the older sister Joe had wanted to take up arms and go charge hell with a water pistol kind of thing you know and

And as she sees mom sit down to write this note, her comment is, I'll never be as good as Marmee. Right? And there was, in this circle of college girls who are all dating, you know, Christian ministries, majors, realizing, and that sentiment was spoken, we'll never be as good as the women who preceded us. Right? This I'll never be as good as Marmee idea.

Jason Allison (10:10)
Hmm.

Bethany Paterson (10:13)
And what was interesting was, again, in that same conversation, one of us, I can't remember who, but one of us had the insight to say, maybe that's the point, right? ⁓ And so as I even think about the term, know, so Jason, your wife, Kristen, you know, you're right. Kristen and I are not like the typical pastors, but what is typical, right? And seeing,

Jason Allison (10:21)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Right.

Bethany Paterson (10:36)
I mean, that conversation for me goes clear back to my college years, 30 years ago, when I'm sitting around with this group of girls and we're realizing, ⁓ you know what, even if this is what God is calling us to, maybe it is time for it to look a little bit different. Maybe we don't have to feel like we're constrained by the same norms that we've seen modeled for us. Maybe it's okay to wear jeans to church or, you know, the scandalous kinds of things that, you know.

Jason Allison (10:42)
Damn.

Mm.

⁓

Wait, wait, you can

wear jeans like period anytime that's allowed.

Bethany Paterson (11:05)
Are you kidding?

Rob Paterson (11:07)
You know what,

I wasn't prepared for this. There are things I'm discovering today that I just didn't know. And ⁓ I don't know what to do with this. know, Jason, it's funny how, you know, like we sort of start off with this idea that our spouses aren't typical. And then Bethany talks about being saved when a puppet ministry VBS team came to her church. She does play the piano and sings. She has an elementary education degree and loves children. You know, so it's like,

Jason Allison (11:14)
Yeah, well.

Bethany Paterson (11:25)
Okay.

you

Rob Paterson (11:34)
She's not like, she doesn't fit the mold, but she kinda, in some ways she does, you know. And I think that's the beauty, right? Like there is actually no mold. And so that's where we need to start just because that's what, like you said, babe, like previous generations have done one thing or another, you know, that does not necessarily mean, yeah, yeah.

Bethany Paterson (11:39)
Right.

And done it well and done it beautifully.

Jason Allison (11:54)
Yeah. Yeah. Now Rob,

we're going to have to clarify it because you just, you called her babe and that's usually what you call me when she's not around. So make sure you specify which babe you're, you're.

Bethany Paterson (12:04)
What you

Rob Paterson (12:05)
So Jason, maybe as like a next step and then we can like bring Bethany in to sort of give us like the other side of the perspective. You know, maybe you and I could think of one or two things that we have done or tried to do over the years, just kind of in response to this question, you know, like how have you and I maybe tried to serve and help?

and love and encourage our spouses over the decades that we've served in the local church as pastors, just sort of in terms of what they do and their unique roles and even their individual uniqueness. Do you have, maybe just.

Jason Allison (12:38)
Yeah. Well, mean,

yeah. So Tuesday morning of this week, I was up in upstate New York and I was leading a soul care seminar for about 30 pastors. And one of the sections, you know, is about your, talk about your private life, your personal life and your professional life and the personal life. We, we spend a chunk of time saying, Hey, you've got to pursue your spouse. Like you've got to, you know, and we just list some very specific, but very practical things like

you know, establishing a regular date night of some kind, right? Making sure. And one of the things that I've, I've shared that I did, especially when our kids were younger is, you know, I went to Kristen and I said, Hey, listen, and I'm not going to get this right all the time, but is there a time that you need me to be at home? Like in the course of a day, is there a regular time that, know, cause well, there's tons of work to be done. do have some flexibility, right? In my scheduling.

I'm not I don't clock in and out type stuff and and so we decided that it would be best if I was home During that get home from school dinner transition time because for my kids that was a time and with Kristen's job That was a difficult time for her to be ready to do so we just negotiated and and again There was always times where it didn't work exactly right and I'm not saying I was perfect in it But we at least that was one thing I said is that you know, I want to honor you

Like, realize this is raising kids as a full-time gig. I don't care. And she also had a full-time job because I was a church planner. And so we needed that, you know, her to have a job for us to have health insurance and to be able to pay the mortgage, you know, stuff like minor details like that. And so that was one thing, you know, that I tried to do. And, and I mean, you know, if I'm being honest, I'm sure there were multiple times that, and by times, I weeks of.

you know, her not feeling as honored in various capacities, right? Because, you know, we and we would have to sit down and negotiate that say, okay, wait a minute, where am I not honored? What am I doing that's overlooking you? Right? And, you know, bringing Bethany back into it for a second, you know, Bethany is not the kind to be overlooked. Like, you know, I mean, she she will she will make herself known in

Rob Paterson (14:35)
Sure.

Jason Allison (14:55)
And that's just, you know, Bethany, that's your personality and it's beautiful and wonderful. And I don't mean that in a negative sense, but you know, my wife is very much the opposite of that in that she will not make herself known and, you know, will shrink back if, if, if not, you know, encouraged to come forward. And so, you know, I've, it's easy for me to just look past her in doing stuff instead of, you know, making sure to bring her along in the process.

So those, mean, those are, I guess, a negative and a positive way that over the years I've tried to do that.

Rob Paterson (15:28)
Yeah.

You know, Jason, as you were saying that, it made me think in our second church plant, one of my elders came to me at one point. He was, he made good money. He was very generous at the church. He was actually a banker, but he had a lot of irons in the fire, you know, and he had kids in college that he was paying for their college and all this stuff. He and his wife, you know, could have driven whatever kind of cars they wanted, but they were driving like 12 year old, you know, kind of beater paid off cars.

And so we were talking one day and he was really wrestling and he was like, man, like what do I do? Do I tell my daughter I can't give her as much as I do every month to like live where she lives, where she's going to school? Do I sell my 12 year old car and buy a 15 year old car? Like, you know, he was literally like honestly wrestling. And I just remember looking him in the eyes and saying, you know, I think.

you know, whatever God tells you to do in any of those things obviously follow the Lord's leading in that. But you know, the fact that you are willing to wrestle with this and ask the question is more important than whatever the answer is or is not. And I think a lot of times, like you said, know, hey, we, Kristen and I, we have these conversations, we negotiated. She, she sometimes said, hey, like this thing you agreed to do, you're not, you know, it's been falling through the cracks too much or whatever. But I do think having, having enough care to

to be willing to ask the question and to give effort in that direction, knowing that it's gonna be imperfect, I think goes a long way. I think sometimes we're afraid to ask questions like that because we just know we don't have the time or the bandwidth to do something all the time successfully. But if you don't try, you're gonna do it less and it's gonna be worse. Yeah.

Jason Allison (17:04)
Damn.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what what

what are you what would you say a couple of things you have tried it, you know, and then we'll see if Bethany agrees.

Rob Paterson (17:18)
Yeah, well, you know, a couple that popped really quickly to my mind. I mean, I'd echo what you said. I still remember the time, you know, Bethany and I are laying in bed. This is, probably five, six years into ministry. It's like a Friday night or something. And I can just tell something's not quite right. So I ask and I ask and I ask. And finally, she's like, I can't remember the last time we just like did stuff that we like looked into each other's eyes, that we had a conversation.

that wasn't directly about someone or something connected to church or ministry. And so, I mean, that was a time in our life where we too decided, you know what, we're gonna every single week as much as possible have a date night. So Friday became our date night, which was real easy back then, because we didn't have kids. And we'd a lot of times find free things to do because we didn't have money. So we didn't let those limiting factors, you know, hinder us. But maybe a couple other things would just be.

Jason Allison (17:47)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:10)
I heard Bethany say enough times, man, like when Rob is hanging out with investing in our boys, like that is, that means a lot to me and it's compelling to me. So, and I've always loved, you know, hanging out with our kids anyway. We say very proudly all the time, we, are and have raised children that we actually enjoy being around, which is, you know, a good gift to us. So, you know, just, just taking the boys and doing things and going on adventures.

you know, not only because I enjoy that and I want to pour into my boys, but I know that means a lot to Bethany as well. And then, you know, we always know in ministry, there's going to be times and seasons where they're busy and our family gets cheated. So really working hard to like pay my family back and also have times and seasons where, you know, other things and obligations get cheated so that I can be holy with my family.

Jason Allison (18:51)
Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. All right, Bethany did was was he lying on any of that or and maybe maybe a better a better way to ask that question is, you know, from your perspective now, what really ministers to your heart? Like what really encourages you knowing that we've got pastors out there who are listening going, yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:06)
are things that I've tried to do.

Bethany Paterson (19:10)
Ha ha ha ha!

Rob Paterson (19:24)
With they got their note thing out tell me what to do so

that you know My spouse feels loved and appreciated and valued and all those things

Jason Allison (19:31)
Yeah,

no pressure.

Bethany Paterson (19:34)
Absolutely. No, no pressure. ⁓

Rob Paterson (19:36)
Ha

Bethany Paterson (19:36)
No, I think what you guys have said so far is spot on. Those are some great like practical applications from more than 50,000 foot view that each of the times that I've either heard Rob in conversation or even from the platform say my marriage, my children, my church, right? Because I can go lead a different church. I can't raise other kids.

Jason Allison (19:53)
Mm-hmm.

Bethany Paterson (19:58)
And I really don't want to have to find another wife. so, so it just, just declaring that publicly, making sure that people are, are aware of, of where he stands in that really speaks to the, just the prioritization that his family and that his, his marriage holds. The more recently, again, just on that practical level.

Actually, was it just this last Sunday, Robbie showed the picture of me that I'd put on Facebook. He was, okay, he was using my Bell's palsy that I had earlier this calendar year as an example, as just an illustration for one of the things he was sharing. you know, he didn't just go on my Facebook page and, you know, dig up this photo and throw it up on the screens on a Sunday. he's never going to...

Rob Paterson (20:23)
it's two Sundays ago, yeah.

Bethany Paterson (20:42)
use me or our children in any kind of an illustrative capacity, tell a story in any way that either would be demeaning or disparaging or that he hasn't already gotten permission for, right? And he's going to have that conversation beforehand. So that Sunday, every conversation, because you better believe there were questions, you know, did he have permission? That we both, you we each fielded.

Jason Allison (20:52)
Right. ⁓

Bethany Paterson (21:04)
And it was just nice to be able to say, of all, yes, he wouldn't have otherwise, right? ⁓ But that was also a story. want to have it a second time. Wow. ⁓

Jason Allison (21:10)
Right. Especially not in second service. After first service, if he didn't, that picture wouldn't be shown. Copyright issues.

Rob Paterson (21:17)
Yes, yeah. How come the sermon was five minutes shorter in the second gathering?

Bethany Paterson (21:25)
But yeah, he's, know, and we've all heard the stories of pastors speaking poorly or even just, you know, using their wives and even like a comedic capacity. But if that's not something she's okay with, you know, so just the shielding that that provides, that's huge. it sets a healthy expectation for the church family to...

just to prepare them for what they ought to be rightfully expecting from her and from her role.

Jason Allison (21:52)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:53)
Mm.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (21:53)
So what, and you know, when you talk about your role, you know, and every church, you know, I work with chemistry staffing. so we, we, and helping find pastors and, you know, for churches and stuff, there's, there's always that question of, Hey, they're a package deal, right? Two for one, which is ridiculous and horrible. and yet there still is a, there's a little bit of truth in that.

Bethany Paterson (22:11)
You

Jason Allison (22:18)
In that when Rob came and took the job at New Hope 14 years ago, you came with him and you know, and they weren't they weren't hiring you. But but in the same breath, you were making a commitment to a church, a community of people that whether you were paid or not, you were making a commitment to just because you know that that's just the way it goes. You know, how do you see your role?

Bethany Paterson (22:29)
Right.

Jason Allison (22:42)
as the wife of the lead pastor or just a spouse of a staff member, know, versus, you know, and then how do you navigate that within the context of your gifting and your personality? How do you feel as you try to navigate that?

Bethany Paterson (22:58)
The, well, I think what you just said is kind of ⁓ one and the same, right? Like, just like we would ask or expect of any of our other congregants or any of the wives of any of our other leaders, we want what you do in the church to be a reflection of your gifts and skills and passions, right? And so being able to say that that's true of me too is huge. You know, the number of things that I've done in any of our church settings,

you know, would certainly fall into some category of capacity. But in terms of the things that I'm most passionate about, of course, you guys know in church plant settings, you don't always get to pick and choose. Like stuff just needs to get done, right? And our first plant in particular, I used to tell people I do everything around here except preach the sermon. then we... But it is nice.

Jason Allison (23:41)
And I end up writing it for him half the time anyway, right?

Rob Paterson (23:47)
Ain't nobody wanna

preach that.

Jason Allison (23:49)
Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (23:50)
Nice. But, but, but it is, it has been fun then to also be in seasons where, you know, we're in a church now where there, there are the numbers of involved congregants, ministry leaders and volunteers, you know, what have you, whatever you call them, to be able to share the wealth a little bit, right? And to not feel like any more than necessary falls on me.

One of the challenges for me personally, outside of marriage and ministry, has been really moving away from this thought that I'm valuable because of what I do. And then moving more into... Age is such a gift, right? The older we get, the better we understand these things. Age and really good counseling, right? Such a gift.

Jason Allison (24:34)
Yep.

Bethany Paterson (24:34)
Because

the more I've been able to and created opportunities for myself to recognize not only what a gift it is to others to be able to step up and serve, but also for me to create bandwidth for myself to be able to be available to do those more, you know, spontaneous, divinely orchestrated types of things that happen on a Sunday morning that I wouldn't be able to do if I was doing all the things I used to do, right? So. ⁓

Jason Allison (25:00)
right?

Bethany Paterson (25:01)
So capacity is one thing, but that gifts and skills, like being able to serve in a way that is not just life-giving to the spiritual family and to those who are coming to hear about Jesus for the first time, but also life-giving to myself, right? And that's okay, right? Being the pastor's wife doesn't have to have this constant sacrificial undertone. And really, I mean, beyond that,

Jason Allison (25:14)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (25:14)
Mm.

Bethany Paterson (25:24)
part of this speaks more to the personality piece, which again, Jason, I chuckle to myself because that really good counseling I talked about happened before we moved here in large part, right? And so people that we've had opportunity to meet and know and love living in Ohio the last 15 years don't have the perspective of knowing me pre-counseling, right?

Jason Allison (25:35)
Hmm.

yeah.

Bethany Paterson (25:45)
It was really

in that counseling that I found my voice, right? So I would have easily been a big part of the reason we ended up on that couch in the counselor's office was I hadn't. And it really equipped me to be able to no longer be overlooked, to no longer be. And so as a result, we're always going to be very pro counseling. But...

Jason Allison (25:49)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (25:49)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (25:53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (26:06)
That's a huge piece of what's allowed me and equipped me to serve in this next very specific role of, as much as I enjoy and appreciate the shielding, I used that word earlier and I'm not even sure where that came from, but the shielding that Rob's sharing from the front has provided, I try to do that for him as well. And so in terms of the role of the pastor's wife, being that,

layer of defense. If you, and I'm not just talking about, you know, snapping back at someone that's got an unkind word. I mean, this is anything and everything. You know, I mean, I might see someone walking his direction on a Sunday morning that, that I'm going to go intercept. no, no, no,

Rob Paterson (26:45)
We need to do a better job of coordinating that list.

Jason Allison (26:48)
Yeah. Well, I know my wife and I had hand signals.

When I would get cornered by someone, I could give her a look and a little signal and she'd come over and distract or something so I could escape.

Bethany Paterson (26:56)
You can help.

Rob Paterson (27:01)
Did you double dip Jason where like the hand signals also could be used during euchre to say I want spades or hearts or whatever?

Bethany Paterson (27:08)
You

Jason Allison (27:08)
No,

because my wife doesn't like euchre. So I

Rob Paterson (27:10)
Nah. ⁓ that's a bummer.

So, you know, as we've been talking, like, I think just a couple things for our listeners, if this is like an area of interest or concern for you, you know, just to kind of sum up that first thing, let me say it this way. I just think, you know, it's important to kind of strike a balance between the uniqueness of the role that, you know, our listener who asked about this acknowledged. I still remember when Dan Peterson came for my installation.

and he prayed this prayer and he called Bethany the first lady. And it's funny because some of the elders like kind of do one of these and look up, which is funny. But there is something where Bethany's words and presence does carry a different weight with certain people in certain situations. So wanting to acknowledge that for sure. But then also, like she said, trying to shield her in ways that, you know what, the church does not get to ask her.

to like serve, you know, like as a full-time job doing all the things they want and wish for her to do. Like if it's something we would expect any other congregant or leaders spouse to do, we can have that same expectation. But if you want her to do double or triple that and she isn't like, hasn't signed up for that, I'm gonna protect my wife. And so I think both of those things are important. And I just love, and she told this like just how her...

her role, the things that she does, has and is, and is allowed to morph as the church morphs, as her passions and gifts morph. Like there are a number of times a year where Bethany in our context will preach and she's one of our top communicators, ⁓ which, you know, probably neither of us would have said that 30 years ago when we got married, but is completely true now because

just experience, voice, you know, the things she's invested in. that's really cool. And then babe, you were talking, I'm sorry, babe, Bethany here, Jason, not you. You know, I also love that she talked about counseling, because I think this is kind of like the next big idea, right? ⁓ If you're like, what do I, you know, how do I help my spouse? You know, how do I shield them? How do I do all this stuff?

Jason Allison (29:11)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:19)
I think that this thought is really important. And one of our mentors said this to us decades ago. He said, if any person is trying to get all of their relational needs met through any one person, that's not good. It's not healthy. so, like pastor, if you are trying to figure every single thing out for your spouse, shield them, protect them in every way, meet.

every one of their relational and emotional needs, that is not ⁓ a workable thing. And at the same time, maybe you're not doing that, but your spouse looks to you for all those things. That's not a workable thing either. And so maybe Bethany, talk about, you already mentioned counseling, which I think is huge, but what are some other relationships that just help and breathe life into you? They're not like the work.

Bethany Paterson (29:57)
Right.

Jason Allison (29:58)
Right.

Rob Paterson (30:10)
kinds of things, but they'd really help keep you going beyond, you know, me and or our family.

Bethany Paterson (30:17)
What first comes to mind is an interesting conversation because I've heard people speak to this from both sides of the coin, if you will. I remember hearing, gosh, I can't even remember how long ago it was, for the first time, how important it was for pastors' wives to have a best friend, if you will, outside the church.

Someone that they can decompress with and maybe even use names and details that the person they're speaking to wouldn't be familiar with. And in years since, I've heard just the opposite expressed, where to only go the first direction doesn't leave you open to opportunities that the Lord might be leading you to within your own church family. And because of the fact that your words and presence carry a measure of weight.

Jason Allison (31:02)
Mm-hmm.

Bethany Paterson (31:02)
that perhaps you shouldn't be sharing certain things within the congregation. Okay, so there's a measure of wisdom, I suppose, all across the board, and I'm not here to pick a side at all, but.

For me personally, it was actually one of the gals in our very first church plant, a gal named Dawn, who she was a part of our ministry life then, married a friend of ours in more recent years, and they now live in Florida. And she's one that's been close enough in certain seasons, but is geographically distanced enough now that, you know, she, for me, is one of those buffers. She's one of those,

Jason Allison (31:34)
Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (31:39)
You know, she's going to get that first peek at the, she's going to get a text that probably has some language in it that I might not put in a Facebook post. ⁓ There you go. But you know, she's going to be that knee jerk reaction, right? She's going to get the reaction, not the response, you know, to use that language.

Jason Allison (31:46)
that pastors wives shouldn't use.

Bethany Paterson (32:03)
⁓ So that when I'm called on to give a response, it's a response and not a reaction, right? So there is the beauty and benefit to having that first layer. And that's not to say that I'd be opposed to that being true of someone within the church family. There's dynamics and such involved. But in terms of the relationships that I find most life-giving.

outside of my marriage that she certainly jumps quickly to mind. Beyond that, having, you know, there's relationships in our small group at the church that are a bit more intimate and no more behind the scenes kinds of stuff than I would necessarily, you know, publish for the whole congregation.

Jason Allison (32:46)
Do you think,

do you think in that, it, cause you guys have been there, you know, 14 years, do you think that, uh, the longer you've been there, the, I don't want to say the easier cause it's never easy, but you know, the, easier it is to figure out the safe person and to find those outside and inside that you can, you know, you can decompress a little bit with, right? You can let your hair down around certain people.

Bethany Paterson (32:51)
Thank

Jason Allison (33:14)
in ways that maybe around others you wouldn't, right? Just because they have a view of the pastor's wife, you know, that right, wrong, or indifferent doesn't matter. You letting your hair down may actually, you know, could hurt, offend them or cause damage in some way, unintended. Do you think being at one place for a longer time has made that easier or more difficult?

Bethany Paterson (33:21)
Yeah.

I think in some respects, it's no different than what we teach our boys, right? Know your audience. You've got to know your audience. are, well, yes, know your audience. But there's a process by which you come to know your audience, right? And that takes time. I mean, unless you just defend right out of the box and then you can just check that box and you're done. know, like, okay, I that for that person. Okay, good to know. Right?

Jason Allison (33:56)
I've, I've found that very useful. I don't know.

Bethany Paterson (33:59)
And so...

Rob Paterson (34:00)
How did you grow that church in half so quickly?

Jason Allison (34:02)
Ugh.

Bethany Paterson (34:02)
Well, I unleashed my wife.

Yes, gracious. ⁓

Rob Paterson (34:06)
Well,

but I think too, and I would say, know, we are fairly discerning. So we're gonna, you know, we don't, you know, we don't just sort of like jump in and, you know, let it all hang out. Like we're gonna figure that stuff out. And I feel like, and this is true kind of for us, was, I think true for Bethany, it's true for our kids. Like we have been very blessed and fortunate.

Bethany Paterson (34:09)
Okay.

that's helpful.

Right.

Rob Paterson (34:33)
that most of the churches we've served and or started just have been atypical. And like you just hear some of these horror stories of how people treat pastors or their spouses or their families, the expectations and all that. Now, some of that might just be, we've put the kibosh to it, but I think we really have had people that have loved us and cared for us and wanted to be safe spaces for us. And so,

Jason Allison (34:55)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (34:58)
Jason, when you asked that question, my initial knee jerk was, I guess you're going to find over time some people that are difficult that you didn't expect would be. But again, for the most part, think right out of the gate even, we sort of saw the people that might not be safe people to talk to about certain things or share with about certain things. And then also found very quickly people that inside of our church that were safe and good and

Jason Allison (35:15)
.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:24)
And that has thankfully remained the case. So those have been really ⁓ good gifts.

Jason Allison (35:28)
I mean,

I would add to that that I do think there's something about the, know, what Bethany was saying earlier about how you would shield her from the podium from, you know, I think there's some pastors need to be willing to step up and say something about my wife is not the second in command. She is not the pathway to get news to me. She is not, you know, like,

Bethany Paterson (35:53)
There you go.

Jason Allison (35:55)
I think there's a point and and my wife, you know, you don't get to judge her at the same level that you judge me because she's not me and she didn't take this job and and like just articulating that even if it's just to the leadership, right? Or from the you know from the platform, whatever it is, whatever works. I do think there's a point at which as pastors we need to take the initiative in that.

and, some of these churches that are exactly what you said, they, they really use and abuse a pastor's spouse. you know, call them out and yeah, there, there may be some consequences and you may, you may piss some people off and okay.

Bethany Paterson (36:30)
.

Rob Paterson (36:33)
And

quite honestly, I know this sounds like a crazy thing to say, but if this persists and gets bad, Bethany and I actually have some friends right now that we've sort of been talking to and dealing with. They've been at their church for seven years and it's been nonstop hell and they're looking for something different. Like if this persists, it's just, it's worth the hassle, the energy, the effort to find a healthier place to serve and uproot your family and go do that than it is to sort of.

allow people to continue to have that level of negative impact on your life. ⁓ So Bethany, a seasoned pastor's wife, ⁓ well, it just means we've done it for a long time. I wonder, and you've dealt with lots of people in lots of settings who kind of serve in this way, people who've done it for less time, people who've done it for more time, people who are just kind of waiting in.

Jason Allison (37:07)
Mm-hmm.

Bethany Paterson (37:14)
seasoned.

Yes.

Rob Paterson (37:30)
And I kind of want to put our last number of minutes here, put these kind of two things together. You know, what would you say? Cause there's some people that just sort of have uniquely felt a calling to serve in this way, maybe like us, hey, met and married kind of in or just out of college. And it's like, Hey, this is kind of what we're doing. Like we're both kind of called to serve in the local church. But there's also people maybe who were like, uh-uh, like I'm a nurse or I'm a, you know, whatever.

or my husband got called to ministry later in life after we'd been married for 10 or 15 or 20 years. And so I never really signed up for this. What would you say to people like that? And at the same time, what about people, because we bump into this all the time. And if your spouse is facing this or you're facing this and you're listening in, think, what would be a thing or two you would say to somebody who hasn't yet?

Bethany Paterson (38:05)
Right.

Rob Paterson (38:26)
developed the thickness of skin to be able to survive out in the wild, wild west of the local church? You know, like what are some things that people can do to help sort of build some of that so that not every little comment or difficulty, you know, throws people into a tailspin.

Bethany Paterson (38:42)
The first thing that jumps to mind, my sweet friend Koletta Smith, her ministry is called Alongside Ministers Wives. I have to check because I want to make sure I give the right because the website is literally that. Anyway, awesome. Thank you. Part of why that comes to mind is because really wherever you fall on the spectrum that Rob was just describing,

Rob Paterson (38:54)
Yeah, we'll put that in the show notes, babe.

Bethany Paterson (39:04)
It is so helpful, and this is maybe even a further answer to an earlier question, so helpful and necessary to have ⁓ a community, not just of someone you can debrief with and decompress with, not just of, you we figured out who those safe people are, but specifically people that understand the unique role of a ministry spouse. And that's what this ministry does alongside ministers' wives.

Their website is just packed full of written resources, articles that her team has done that cover a whole ton of really weighty topics actually. then there's, they have a podcast as well. They've got seasonal cohorts that are available on different topics. And it's been, I've only been a part of one cohort, but it was enough to, one of her cohorts.

But it was enough for me to be able to see how well their team manages and not just manages, that's maybe not the right word, ministers to ministry spouses that fall really on various parts of that spectrum. ⁓ Because yeah, you're right, we don't all come to this in the same way. We're not all built the same. I'm not currently built the way I was built 30 years ago.

Jason Allison (40:04)
Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (40:13)
Right? So, I mean, there's, so there's that as well. And so having a resource like that, and that's, you know, they may not be the only, but they're the one that comes most quickly to my mind because it is, it's important to have a community that understands even though our settings are different, even though our thickness of skin is different, even though we do share some commonality in our roles and that just the...

Jason Allison (40:33)
Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (40:36)
unique challenges that come along with that. it's good to have that audience where you can say, hey, this happened and someone else can go, oh, that shouldn't have, or here's how I address that, where many of the conversations that I have with people kind of outside of that role sound more like, how do you do what you do? Well, I don't necessarily, and those moments need to be talking to, I need somebody who I don't have to explain myself to.

Jason Allison (40:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, we say we say all the time that, you know, being the lead pastor of a church, you cannot explain the weight of that to someone who's never experienced it. And I think being the spouse of a pastor, you know, the the things you deal with, the way things happen, you can't explain that to someone who's not been there. And so, yeah, alongside ministrywives.com is an amazing resource. And we'll, of course, put it in the show notes. But yeah, I think that's that's really good.

Rob Paterson (40:58)
Yeah, yeah.

Bethany Paterson (41:05)
No, you're right.

Rob Paterson (41:06)
Mm-hmm.

Bethany Paterson (41:20)
Thank you.

Rob Paterson (41:26)
Yeah.

So babe, as we land the, yeah, as we land the plane, would you, cause I think, you know, people listening in might go, well, she survived like 30 years as a ministry spouse. She sounds like she's healthy. She sounds like she doesn't want to like quit or murder somebody at least today, you know, but I just, you know, maybe tell the story of your conversation you had with a couple of ladies from our community at the global leadership summit this year.

Jason Allison (41:27)
You got one more thing, Rob? Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (41:57)
So when you said seasoned earlier, all I could think was, is he trying to call me salty and spicy?

Jason Allison (42:03)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (42:04)
That's a different podcast episode.

Jason Allison (42:05)
Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (42:06)
Lord Almighty. So now what Rob was referring to, we host the Global Leadership Summit at New Hope and had an opportunity to have one of the meals with a couple gals that are in different leadership positions in our community and gals that I've done life with to varying degrees over the last number of years.

It was just interesting because they each attend other ones, area churches, and so they know my role, but they'd not see me necessarily in that setting, right? so as we're eating lunch and the one says, you know, it strikes me, why aren't you a pastor too? Like, why wouldn't you become a pastor like your husband? And my response was, well, you guys know my husband well enough to know. He's just, he's very gracious. He's...

very, you know, generous with his time. I mean, sees the best in people to a fault. I mean, just like this... I can't even remember all the words. But just this kind of person that just wants to... He wants to be as redemptive and inclusive as possible. you know, he's always going to go the extra mile to, you know, to make that happen. And they yeah, yeah, they said...

Jason Allison (43:14)
Man, you are pouring it on.

Bethany Paterson (43:15)
Right, well here's what I said though. said, yeah, I'm not those things. If you want to go, if want to, if hope isn't a good fit for you, I will be the one to help point that out and help you find a better fit, right? Not because, I mean, I might think it, don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you. I'm not going to say that out loud, but I will graciously help you find a church family that's going to be a better fit for you.

Jason Allison (43:21)
Yeah.

Bethany Paterson (43:41)
And again, skills and abilities that I didn't necessarily have pre-counseling 30 years ago. this, I think Rob, to answer your question, this idea of how do you survive? As a pastor's spouse, you've really got to determine where your limits are, right? What am I going to tolerate? What am I going to?

And if that's, we need somebody to cover this one ministry area for this one time and this, know, absolutely, let help you out, right? If it's, hey, we need you to do these 15 things on an ongoing basis, yeah, probably not so much. But that idea of knowing your limits and then being able to express those, that's huge. And sometimes just the ability to do that, just the freedom to do that, the environment, the atmosphere to do that is created by the pastor.

But one of the things, so I keep referring to our counseling, but one of the most brilliant things I walked away from there was you have every right to feel the tension that you feel and you also have the responsibility to articulate those things. Right? And so whether you're, you know, the pastoral spouse saying to the pastor, hey, I'm not liking how this is working out, whether it's you know, the spouse feeling comfortable to

Rob Paterson (44:40)
Mm-hmm.

Bethany Paterson (44:49)
you know, speak up on their own defense. All those things are important, but being able to do that in an environment that's already been created, ⁓ an expectation that's already been set, right, it makes that a lot easier.

Jason Allison (44:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (45:02)
Yeah.

And the reason I wanted you to share that story was so that our listeners could hear just like, you know, there are times and ways that a pastor, you know, is a unique role and, and, you know, worthy of special honor. You know, even when someone doesn't maybe have the same temperament or wiring, you know,

A spouse serving ⁓ alongside a pastor in ministry in the local church is also a unique role, deserving of special honor. And so that is true for you. That is true, listener, for your spouse, regardless of how they perfectly fit someone's mold or not. God has wired them to be effective contributors to the ministry that you have together.

And the more you can see that and embrace that, even against sort of those external forces, maybe within your ministry or church that sort of challenge that, I think the better off you guys are gonna be as a ministry team long term.

Jason Allison (46:00)
Yeah, well, we got to bring this in for a landing. Bethany, thank you so much for carving out a little time ⁓ in your day. Yeah, we loved having you. Yeah, Rob and I have fun sometimes. Yeah, but we really when you're not on, we really work hard. It's a lot of hard. Yeah, you know. Well, we appreciate you and hey listeners.

Bethany Paterson (46:06)
Thank you. This is lot of fun.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (46:22)
Man, keep sending these ideas in because we would love to have conversations around them. We would love to spend time with you. If that's even part of it, our job, right? Our calling in this is to engage, equip and encourage pastors and leaders. And so we want to do that in any way possible. Feel free to reach out, do us a favor and like and subscribe and share the podcast. That always means a lot to us. Have an amazing week. We love you and we're cheering for you. Take care.