Discipleship & Evangelism Convo with Thad Bergmeier

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson welcome Thad Bergmeier, who shares his journey from aspiring doctor to ministry leader. The conversation explores the importance of leisure and rest in ministry, the significance of defining discipleship, and the challenges of church growth in a comfort-driven culture. Thad discusses the mission of ABWE and EveryEthne, emphasizing the need for local churches to mobilize and reach diverse communities. The episode concludes with a call to action for pastors to lead by example and embrace the risks associated with effective ministry.

Find out more about ABWE & EveryEthne 

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Welcome everybody to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. It's good to see you, Rob. You didn't get to join us last week and I just missed you, but I'm glad you're back.

Rob Paterson (00:12)
I'm glad I'm back too. And actually, I don't really know that we've talked overtly about this, but you know, this is the fourth year that I have been one of our high school varsity golf coaches. And so this week we actually have tomorrow we have sectionals and you know, it's a rebuilding year. The next couple of years we should have a really good golf team.

but last year and this year have been rebuilding years. so sectionals is probably it, like unless somebody puts everything together. And I tell you what, like especially at the end of the season, we're getting the last practices, the last matches in. And for a lot of these weeks, it's been like golf stuff, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday. So I'm very, very excited that.

Thad Bergmeier (00:49)
you

Rob Paterson (00:59)
as of just in the next couple of days, my golf season should be done for the year and I'm looking forward to a little bit of a reprieve.

Jason Allison (01:05)
Yeah, I am too. I'm looking forward to you not being so busy. I says the guy who's traveling a lot and also has a busy schedule, but that's all right. Yeah, we did actually for the first time in a while got together last week and actually played around a golf together, like met in Mansfield there and played around the golf. mean, we we weren't like, you know, making breaking any course records or anything like that. But, you know.

Rob Paterson (01:09)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (01:30)
It was fun just to hang out for a few hours. And know what, pastors, leaders, you gotta have somebody you can do that with. I mean, we say from the get-go, our purpose as a podcast and really as the Church Talk project is to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and leaders. And so one of the encouragements I wanna give you is to find someone that you can hang out with.

and engage them and have some fun together as well as just build each other up. so yeah, yeah, that's it. I'm excited. I'm excited for today. We got a great guest coming today.

Rob Paterson (02:02)
Yeah, Jason, before we hop into that, let me just say one other thing, because I love what you just said. I think it's so important. So I just got back from a three day planning retreat with my worship leader. We've talked about this on the podcast, you know, just sort of working ahead and planning and all those things. But one of the things we have always done is on the front end of this, like when we first get away is is most of the first day we usually build in some kind of

break free recreational thing. In years past, we've played golf. This year we actually went down to German Village in Columbus and I'd never been there before and we'd hung out and ate some food and walked around. And quite honestly, like I used to feel guilty about that, but I'm telling you, just spending a half day doing sort of leisurely things, spending time with people that you know and love.

helps you kind of not only be healthy, but break away in a way that just prepares your mind to like spend a day and a half just like sitting in a little room doing work. and so there too, like I get for whatever reason, ministry types, we a lot of times feel way too much guilt. got to maximize every minute. I've got to do all these things and just to sort of

Jason Allison (03:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:16)
At another level of encouragement, you know what? You're gonna be way more effective, you're gonna be way more focused if you build some leisure and rest into your life as well.

Jason Allison (03:26)
Yeah, we should do like a podcast on running on full with somebody like Mitch Harrison. wait, we did that just a few weeks ago. yeah. Well, I tell you, so the guest that we have today is someone I met a couple months ago at a small church USA retreat, which we had, we Terry from small church USA on a few months ago. but so I went to this retreat and I ended up sitting next to this guy.

Rob Paterson (03:33)
hahahaha

Jason Allison (03:52)
And and we just kind of hit it off and got to know each other and it ends up we kind of do similar things but in different networks, but our networks overlap a whole lot and the more I talked to him the more I was like I got to get this guy in the podcast because he's he's pretty smart. He's got some great ideas and experiences and so I want to welcome to the podcast the one and only doctor. I just like saying that doctor sad.

Thad Bergmeier (04:16)
Wow, that's great.

Jason Allison (04:17)
Bergmeyer yet that welcome to the podcast man.

Thad Bergmeier (04:19)
Hey, man. It's great to be here, guys. And I will say sitting in the back row is kind of like, remember the Muppets and the two guys up in the balcony? I felt like that was Jason and I in the back of that conference. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (04:27)
Yes, that it really was. It really was.

Rob Paterson (04:33)
it's very interesting you say that

because anytime I'm sitting next to Jason at a conference, I have that exact same sensation. Must be Jason.

Thad Bergmeier (04:40)
Yeah,

it must be the little snide remarks and back and forth. That's great.

Jason Allison (04:41)
I'm the...

See Rob, it's not just you that brings that out of me. Yeah, no, we had a good time and it was really great. Just, I'll be getting to know you of course, but then hearing a little bit about what you do and how you work with churches and maybe just to get started. Like, so our listeners get a little introduction to who you are and so forth. Just share your story real quick. Like how you came to know Christ, you're calling into ministry.

Thad Bergmeier (04:48)
haha

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I grew up in Indiana, in Fort Wayne area, and grew up in a Christian home. Parents were faithful to take me to church every Sunday. Went to kind of what we would call now kind of an old conservative Baptist church and love the people there. Kind of prayed the prayer, did the things, went to Christian school when I was in kindergarten. And, you know, I don't know when the Lord...

regenerated me and saved me. But probably then I always had conviction, kind of walked away, kind of did what normal Christian school kids do, kind of didn't own it until between my junior and senior year of high school. And the Lord really got a hold of my heart. so went to Christian school K through 11. And then that year, when the Lord got a hold of my heart, I was really convicted. I didn't have a lot of unsaved friends. And so transferred to a

public school my senior year and left a lot of opportunities on the table at the Christian school, but just really felt called like God was doing something cool in our youth ministry at church and wanted to go and help be a leader and light in the public school that I went to. So it's great. And then I was a pre-med student for two years. I wanted to, that's all I ever wanted to do is pursue medicine and kind of halfway through my

Jason Allison (06:14)
Wow.

Thad Bergmeier (06:24)
beginning of my second year, I actually had applied to Moody Bible Institute out of high school, because I thought, man, I'm going to school for eight years, what's nine? Let's go get a year of Bible. So this is back in 92. And in my application to Moody Bible Institute, I put, I only want to come for a year, which at that time it was kind of hard to get into Moody. I didn't really realize that. And so I got put on a waiting list. And so I said, well, I'll kind of forget that. So over the course of probably

a year, I was discipling some junior high kids as I was a college student and just spending time with them and reading the word with them. And I found myself as I was at school, just reading the Bible and reading commentaries and studying to teach more so than like my biology textbooks or chemistry or whatever. And our pastor preached a sermon on Romans 12, one and two. So this is like a year after I was on the waiting list. I got like, hey, there's you're still on the waiting list, that sort of thing.

And our pastor preached a sermon in Romans 12, 1 and 2. Just offering life as a living sacrifice. Came home, told my mom, think God's calling me to ministry. Like, I don't know, I just have a sense like this is what I want to do. Like it's all I find myself doing. And the next day I got a letter from Moody saying that there's room. So just like God's providential timing of all that, you know, this is probably for a different podcast at some point, but coming back to that calling.

Jason Allison (07:28)
Mm.

Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (07:46)
so often throughout ministry life that gets hard has always been kind of reaffirming to me, okay, you're doing what God wants you to do. And so I went to Moody, went to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School for my master's, a doctorate at Clark Summit University Baptist Bible Seminary in Clark Summit, PA, which is no longer, in fact, Trinity is no longer in the US. They left the US and merged with a school in Canada. like,

Jason Allison (07:50)
Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (08:15)
two of the three schools I went to are, I don't know what that says about me. And as long as Moody is holding on strong, so we'll be good. Yeah, I think we're okay with that one. yeah, and then.

Rob Paterson (08:21)
I'm

Jason Allison (08:21)
I think Moody will be all right. They're doing pretty good. No, I love that though.

The calling thing though, I don't want to leave that for a second because I know there have been times in my ministry where things are not good, things are hard and going back to that calling and that where God said, hey, this is what I want you to do.

I'm not saying you'll prosper and be wealthy. I'm not saying, you know, like all those things. I'm just saying this is, and, being able to go back to that has always been, it's just, I think it's some, it's, it's similar to when I'm talking to a new believer about baptism, right? It is that's the day you can always look back. No one can take that away. That was the day you publicly said, you know, and I, so I, I appreciate that, that, know, you, recognize that and, and, and see how important it is.

Thad Bergmeier (09:15)
Yeah, you know, if we all look back at our callings to ministry, there's probably some providential thing that happened that confirms, you know, and looking back at those things, like they're not accidents. Like, it's not an accident that I received something from Moody the day after I felt called to ministry in listening to a sermon on Romans 12, 1 2 of offering your life as a sacrifice. So, like, if I get that two weeks before that, I'm like, okay, well, there's room. Let's see what God wants. Not that God doesn't use that, too, you know.

But sometimes there's, and this happened often in life, in ministry, where you just get these sort of like moving maybe for one place to another. God opens doors and closes doors for you.

Jason Allison (09:49)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. And so

Rob Paterson (09:57)
Yeah, that's.

Jason Allison (09:57)
you served in like three different states and you've been in pastoral ministry for almost 20 years before even stepping into some of this work with ABWE and every ethany. What kind of roles did you have there?

Thad Bergmeier (10:00)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So I was, I mean, the two main places was in, I mean, I did some youth ministry. I was a youth pastor, college pastor, that sort of thing. And then in Chicago, and then I spent some time in Kansas. Now, honestly, I've got to tell you when we went, because I grew up in Indiana. My wife and I met in Chicago. She went to Wheaton. I went to Moody. We met at the same church there and got married. both, our first two boys were born in Chicago. So we're kind of like, that's our adult home in a way.

And we, so we've lived kind of in this Midwest thing. And so when God opened the door for us to go to Kansas, to be a part of, it was like an associate kind of slash executive sort of posture. When we drove into town, literally I drive into town going, man, this is our great commission moment. Like this feels like the uttermost parts of the earth does. we're like, what did we do?

Jason Allison (10:58)
hahahaha

Rob Paterson (10:58)
Hahaha!

Thad Bergmeier (11:02)
And it turned out to be some of the best. were there about seven years and some of the best years of ministry and some of our best friends in this world are there. Our daughter was born there and we still go back and visit all the time. But then was in Ohio as a lead pastor up here outside of Cleveland, Ohio. So for about six years before God called us into this role with ABWE.

Jason Allison (11:23)
Yeah, I love that. I love that.

Rob Paterson (11:26)
Yeah, that's that's so cool. That just for our listeners, maybe tell them what is ABWE. What is every FNAE?

Thad Bergmeier (11:32)
Yeah.

Yeah, so ABWE stands for Association of Baptists for World Evangelism. We're a mission agency, been around about 98 years, have about a thousand missionaries in 85 countries. We often kind of joke like we don't, we have not actually sent any missionary. And what we mean by that is that we're really heavily based on local church. And so we want to facilitate local churches sending missionaries. And Every Ethne is our North American team. So US and Canada is kind of our field with Every Ethne.

And our vision is that we want to see those from every people group in North America in a life-changing relationship with Jesus. Currently, there's about 615 different people groups in US and Canada. And we want to see all of them reached with the gospel. Now, here's kind of the spoiler alert. Like, we don't think we're going to be the leading cause of that happening, but we think that the local church is. And so therefore, our mission is to mobilize the church.

to reach every people group in North America through disciple making that multiplies leaders and churches. And so we find ourselves getting to interact with lots of pastors and having them ask about geographies and why did God place your church where it's at and who's around you and are you making disciples, reaching lots of people of the gospel, developing leaders? What is the concept of planting churches? Like, is that on your horizon? Like the biblical kind of theology of multiplication.

Is it driving your church? so, and then we want to help them send missionaries, both here and globally as well. Stronger, healthier North American churches will send more and support more missions on a global scale. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (13:04)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:05)
Yeah, yeah, that's.

That's so good. I got a follow up question with that because I read those

Jason Allison (13:12)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:15)
words, know, mobilizing churches to reach every people group in North America through disciple making. you know, we've talked about the idea of disciple making on the podcast, certainly, and I think in almost every local church, know, my elders, we have talked and wrestled extensively with like, what does it mean to truly make disciples? And you know, what does that look like in the context of local church?

I think one of the problems is that that word discipleship or disciple making, you know, is so charged and everybody when you say it, like either has nothing in their head, like, I don't really know, or they have like their list of things they experienced when they were whatever age when somebody was trying to disciple them. You know, that do you have any thoughts about that? Like if a local church reached out and said,

Thad Bergmeier (14:00)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:01)
Man, we want to be better disciple makers, but we're still having a hard time with like the bullseye of that and what steps like what kinds of things would you say to help them?

Thad Bergmeier (14:09)
Yeah.

Well, the first thing I'd say is how do you define disciple? Like if the Great Commission in Matthew 28 says, go make disciples of all nations, right? Baptizing them in the of the Father, Son, and Spirit and teaching them to observe or do all that I've commanded you. So how do you know you've hit the bullseye? How do know you've accomplished that mission, right? If you don't have a definition of disciple that is measurable, attainable.

something that you can grab a hold of that your people can understand? How do you know if you're doing it? So what traditionally has happened, and it's, you know, the biblical language is true, like a disciple means learner, right, or follower, or student. And so we say, well, of course, we're trying to make people who follow Jesus, right? Is that it? Like, is that, so how do we know we've reached that? How do we know we've hit that?

And so we, we often encourage churches and past pastors. When the first thing to do is you have to have a working definition of disciple that your church understands that is measurable and attainable. So that's step number one.

Jason Allison (15:21)
Yeah, yeah,

yeah. I mean, this weekend I'm going to be working with two or three different churches on that exact topic we're talking about. Because the thing is, discipleship has come to mean everything, which means it actually means nothing. so being able to clarify that and the way we, when I work with churches, I go through a process to help them.

Rob Paterson (15:31)
Hmm.

Mm.

Jason Allison (15:45)
identify the four roles of disciples in their context, right? Because I mean, the context that they're in makes a difference in the kind of disciples they're going to produce and they need to produce if they're going to reach the people in that context. And so that's been really exciting to see because so many churches, I'm finding that they just they to them discipleship is another class, right? It's another set of things to, you

Thad Bergmeier (16:10)
Yes.

Jason Allison (16:14)
Pieces of knowledge. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Thad Bergmeier (16:14)
It's a curriculum. It's a 12 week seminar, right? And

Rob Paterson (16:16)
Mm-hmm.

Thad Bergmeier (16:19)
honestly, like we were, I was just up in Toronto last week. We had about 60 pastors that kind of walking through a seminar that we do. And one of them made an observation or asked a question. And my initial response was there's a difference between discipleship and disciple making.

Because, and again, it's unfortunate, I wish we could just use the biblical language, go make disciples. But discipleship has become what you just said, Jason, content driven, where disciple making is action oriented.

Jason Allison (16:49)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (16:49)
Mm.

Thad Bergmeier (16:51)
So it's,

and again, I mean, I went back to the church. used to pet pastor here. I preached maybe two years ago and had to apologize to him on something. It's kind of, it's a very humbling thing because there's a thought that struck me about four years ago as I was really studying this disciple making stuff. So if Jesus told us to baptize and then to teach all that I've commanded, well, one of the things he commanded was the great commission.

Rob Paterson (17:04)
you

Jason Allison (17:20)
Mm.

Thad Bergmeier (17:20)
So

have I made a disciple if they're not making a disciple?

Jason Allison (17:24)
Yeah, that's... Yeah. Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (17:25)
Like that question will haunt you Like I'm not done.

Rob Paterson (17:28)
Mm.

Thad Bergmeier (17:30)
The point is I'm not done with them unless they're beginning to reproduce themselves, right? That's the second Timothy to like the four generation thing.

Rob Paterson (17:34)
That's right.

Jason Allison (17:39)
That's great. I don't know if we should just stop there and let everybody soak on that for a while. Well, so one of the statements on the website that you make is you say Jesus didn't command you to fill the pews of your church. He commanded you and your church to go and make disciples. I mean, that is right on the home page of everyethanay.org. You did. Tell me, let's keep going on this. Why is that so important?

Thad Bergmeier (17:40)
So anyway.

Well.

Yeah.

Really? We put that there? I'm just kidding.

Well,

okay, so let's back up. Like one of the first commands God gave to Adam and Eve in the garden was to be, what? Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, right? Scatter, like to take his name everywhere on this incredible globe that he has created for them. We know what happens and enters, And humanity just goes crazy, berserk, bad. God starts over with the flood.

Jason Allison (18:12)
Be fruitful and multiple.

Thad Bergmeier (18:30)
and then starts over with Noah and his family. And what does he tell him? Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth. And what does man do? They build a tower. They build a tower, right? And so now we could trace a bunch more through the Old Testament, but you get to the New Testament and after Jesus and what he did and accomplished upon the cross, now he goes, it's not just a creation mandate, now there's a gospel mandate.

Jason Allison (18:35)
If you

They all come together. Yep.

Rob Paterson (18:41)
Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (18:57)
Go make disciples of all nations. And what do we end up doing as churches? The lure and attraction of growing big, it like grabs us. Like we're so tempted and we want so much to add and add and add and add instead of reproducing and multiplying out and sending.

Jason Allison (19:06)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (19:08)
Mm.

Jason Allison (19:17)
Yeah, okay, now you're starting to get all convicting.

Thad Bergmeier (19:18)
And so, yeah, mean, well,

Rob Paterson (19:20)
Yeah, you're meddling, you're meddling,

Thad.

Thad Bergmeier (19:23)
it's hard for us too. mean, like, the local church that I'm a part of, like, I'm trying to, like, just think through this. Like, we love our small group, right? Like, and you love your small group that you're in. And we don't want it to multiply because we don't want to leave those people, you know? I kind of think of it like, I don't know, how old are you, where do you guys have kids, right? And they're, do you have college?

Jason Allison (19:37)
Yeah.

And I've got two,

a minor out of college. They're older.

Thad Bergmeier (19:48)
Oh, out of college,

you're that old. Oh, okay. Well, I remember the first time my son was going to college and saw our oldest and we were like two months away from taking him and someone asked me like, we were back in Kansas visiting our former church. They go, I can't believe Carsten's name is Carsten is going to college. Like, how does that feel like? And I don't know if you guys felt this way like I did. I'm like, I'm sick to my stomach.

Rob Paterson (19:48)
I got a college kid.

Jason Allison (20:17)
Hmm.

Thad Bergmeier (20:17)
Like

it's a gut punch. It hurts so bad. And then at the same time, I'm like, you know, but if he doesn't have to, but if he doesn't leave at some time point, I'm going to have to kick him out. Like there's that weird tension, right? Is there are kids like, don't want the 27 year old boy living in my basement and sleeping in, you know, the star wars sheets and playing video games. Like none of us want that. Right. So we're going to have to kick. But from the point that he was born,

Jason Allison (20:30)
Yep.

Rob Paterson (20:31)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (20:35)
Yeah, yeah. Right.

Rob Paterson (20:36)
Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (20:47)
we were raising him to send him out. And as Christians, when we lead people to Christ and disciple them, we raise them up to keep them in. Like, why is that? You know? Like, let's release them for the sake of the kingdom. I think a lot of it probably comes back to its identity issues. As pastors, we wanna have a growing church. We want to, I don't think...

Jason Allison (20:56)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (20:56)
Mm.

Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (21:11)
consciously. Maybe there's some pastors that do, right? But I think there's a subconscious thing that when we go to a conference and like, really, how many people are at your church? What we want to say a bigger number than a smaller number, right? And

Jason Allison (21:22)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:22)
Yeah. Yeah. Well.

Jason Allison (21:24)
Well, let me, we talk about the functional great commission because you've talked about the great commission, but what I see happening in churches is the functional great commission, which is go into all the world and make worship attenders, baptizing them in the name of small groups and teaching them to volunteer a few hours a week. Right. And that's how we try to get a bigger church, but we're not making disciples. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:49)
Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, this is making me think too of some of the exponential language and constructs, right? Where they talk about, you know, like, like the level five churches. And so like one and two are declining or plateaued and then level four and five are like reproducing and multiplying.

Jason Allison (21:49)
Go ahead, Rob. Sorry I interrupted you.

Rob Paterson (22:08)
But the middle one is that sort of addition kind of church, right? Where it's like we're not looking to like send people out and start new things we just like if we can slowly kind of increase our own thing and One of the things that was so helpful for me as they talk about How there's it's almost like there's magnets no matter what end of the spectrum you're on pulling you to the to the addition So, you know if you're if you're declining or plateaued you're like I just I mean if we could just be adding some

Thad Bergmeier (22:25)
Yep. Amen.

growth.

Rob Paterson (22:36)
we would be succeeding and that's good. there's pulling you that way. But even if you're like multiplying and you're sending people out, like, you know, that's hard work and people that you love, like you said, in your small group, now there's somewhere else being mobilized for the kingdom. And, you know, maybe like your church is a little bit smaller because you keep like launching other people out. And so you have less resources and man, that carpet's looking dreary. you know, like there's just the things.

And so there's just all of these magnets pulling us to the thing. And then we go to conferences and who are the ones that are on the platform? Who are the ones that we celebrate? It's the ones who have added enough to be more significant than we are. And so like, yeah, the whole culture just pushes us that direction. And it's hard to break free from that. Yeah. I got a couple of questions here. So.

Thad Bergmeier (23:24)
Yeah, for sure.

Rob Paterson (23:28)
And you talked about this, you the idea if we really do want to make disciples and reach all people, you were just before we hit record, you were telling us a cool story about yet another way that the nations, in some ways it's easier, right? Because the nations, we don't have to go to them as much because they have come to us as well. So talk a little bit about that and then maybe tell us, you know, what do you think?

is really holding the local church back from being more successful at reaching the nations for the kingdom.

Thad Bergmeier (23:58)
Yeah.

Well, let me take your first question there. If you have someone at your church right now that feels called to reach Afghans, are they going to go to Afghanistan?

Rob Paterson (24:08)
Yeah, probably not.

Thad Bergmeier (24:08)
I mean,

like in all honesty, like there's not a path in, right? And we have teammates on our team in North America that are making disciples and planting an Afghan church in the U.S. Like God has brought them to be our neighbors. You know, if you want, there's 600,000 plus Punjabi Sikh in Toronto. Some of the least reached, least engaged peoples of the world from Northern India.

and you can go across the border in Toronto and begin making disciples there, build relationships that can bear the weight of truth and share Christ with them. And so the opportunity, I mean, obviously this is not a political discussion on immigration and all this kind of stuff. There's a reality that the peoples of the world are here. And so we need to say, what's God doing? And it's only really a story that God can write.

And so we want to say, church, if there's people in your circle of influence, as you look to saturate the geography or of where God has placed you, do you have a strategy to reach the Hispanics? Do you have a strategy to reach the Muslims and the Hindus in your community? And we'd love to come alongside and help you with that. Now, your second question is, why aren't we better? Is that what you said?

Rob Paterson (25:29)
Yeah, yeah, what's holding the church back from actually doing this? Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (25:29)
or what keeps us?

Yeah, comfort. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if I have a perfect answer for that. Comfort or...

It takes such extreme, like even go back to like the multiplication stuff, but I think it also applies into reaching people not like you. We still have a Samaritan problem, right? Like reaching people not like you who live close to you. It's still, it's harder. ⁓ It takes such extreme intentionality. It's slower. You know, I don't.

Jason Allison (25:52)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (26:01)
Yeah, we wi-

We're like, I'm used to seeing people like me. know how they think. I know, right? And so it's gonna be a lot more difficult for me to reach my Muslim neighbor when I have no idea how Muslims think or what turns them off or, you know, I'm gonna invite them over and serve pork chops or something, you know, like, it's like, you're like, that's a faux pas, don't do that. You know, your dog's running around the house, you know, but like,

Jason Allison (26:25)
Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (26:30)
I don't want to needlessly offend them, so I just won't do it.

Jason Allison (26:32)
Yeah, so I mean, there's a there's a cultural knowledge issue that's there, you know, just just knowing all the things you just said, right? You know, most people wouldn't even think of that. So it's a it's a hospitality if you want to throw a biblical gifting in there, right? Hospitality is is a a trait that I think we need. We can all learn how to be hospitable. We may not be our.

spiritual gift, however you want to go down that road, but we can all be hospitable. And that means, you know, listening and learning from kind of having a posture of, you know, the old seek first to understand and then to be understood. Right. We don't like that. We don't do that because then it's not about us. And so I think that gets in the way. And which goes back to what you're saying. We want to build our own little tower. Right. We want it to be our people building our tower.

and it getting bigger and stronger so we can see how good we've done. And that gets in the way.

Thad Bergmeier (27:31)
Yeah, and I just add one more thing on top of that is...

Okay. Let me... You can apologize to everyone after I'm done. Okay, okay, okay. we... There's a lot of pastors. I'm going to be very broad-broad-struck here, right? Like, so there's a lot of pastors that have gotten away from Ephesians 4 in the equipping the saints to do the ministry. They do the ministry.

Jason Allison (27:42)
Yeah, we push the envelope all the time. Don't worry about it. Go for it. Let's do it.

Rob Paterson (27:45)
Yeah, yeah, it's good.

Thad Bergmeier (28:02)
and they think the ministry is from the stage or from the pulpit. I mean, like what happened during COVID? What did we learn through that? The first thing all of our churches did was like, man, I gotta get my teaching online or my people are gonna die. I'm like, there's a lot better teachers online than you. Like, frankly, let me just be honest with you. So, but what if we've been mobilizing our people, equipping our people.

Jason Allison (28:18)
Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (28:26)
Like there's a saying that we like to say a lot that whatever God wants to do through your church, He wants to do through all the followers of Christ at your church. Not just the leaders, not just a couple people, but through everyone. And then the next statement down from that is that whatever God is going to do through your church, He's going to do through leaders who equip or mobilize their people as their first order of leadership.

Like the number one thing that pastors are called to do is to not do the ministry, but to equip people to do the ministry. And that's, I mean, you can be offended at that, but that's Ephesians 4 directly. I that's what exactly what God told us to do. Yeah. And then the third principle that we would flow from that is that whatever God's gonna do in the world, He's gonna do through a decentralized structure. And what we mean by that is that it doesn't mean that you don't centrally gather, right? Like you do.

Jason Allison (29:00)
Yeah.

Say if you're if you're offended by that, you got a bigger problem than being offended.

Rob Paterson (29:15)
Mm.

Thad Bergmeier (29:22)
But the point is, if there's 168 hours in the week, how many hours are they gonna be in your building? Two, three, four at the most, like really spiritual churches. So you've got to like mobilize your people to live the gospel everywhere they go, in every location, like at every point. And so that's what's difficult. It's easy to stand on a stage and preach. It honestly is. And it's hard.

Jason Allison (29:28)
Yeah, one or two. Yeah. Right.

Rob Paterson (29:33)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (29:45)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (29:50)
to consistently walk with people and mobilizing them to take the gospel where they live, learn, work, and play and holding them, measuring like, here's what a mature disciple looks like. How are you growing in that? And so those things are harder. I think it's just, we get the tyranny of the urgent. Like we just do what we do, what we've always done. Someone last week told me there's a guy from Canada that was helping us lead our thing.

Rob Paterson (30:07)
Mm.

Jason Allison (30:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (30:17)
And he said, your church is exactly structured for the results that you're getting.

Rob Paterson (30:24)
Hmm.

Thad Bergmeier (30:26)
So

you don't, yeah, I know. I was like, wow, drop the bomb. Like he said that and then walked off and I'm supposed to come up after him. like, and it's like drop the mic right there. Like your church is exactly structured for the results that you're getting.

Jason Allison (30:34)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (30:39)
Wow, Thad, as you're talking, thus far we've sort of maybe painted a bit of a picture of ways that we're all kind of falling short a little bit and need to do better or refocus or retool. Maybe talk to us about some churches or places where you see effective ministry actually taking place and what are some of the common characteristics that those places or those ministries have that are structuring them to be more effective at doing the actual work?

Thad Bergmeier (31:01)
Yeah.

Yeah. mean, there's a, there's a, the first thing that pops on my mind is that there's a church in Nebraska that came to me six years ago and like, Hey, can you help us plan a church? And my first question to them was, tell me about your church. They're like, we don't want it to be anything like our church. don't really like the DNA of our church. And I'm like, well, you know, your DNA is going with you, right? Like, so, you know, we spent lots of time with them, just some trainings, all this kind of stuff. Well, they, so a church of 200, like,

Jason Allison (31:25)
Yeah

Thad Bergmeier (31:37)
When people don't hold on to everything, like as if that magnet in the middle of the light drawn, a church of 200 in a rural setting, probably not unlike yours, Rob, went eight miles away to the next rural town, sent 60 of their people out of 200, one of their two pastors, three of their six elders, and five families that led small groups.

So they set like their best, right? A year afterwards, I was talking to the pastor. I'm like, how's it going? He goes, man, it's just been nuts. Like we're up over 200 again. And the church plant was over 100. And it just, because that simple, I told him, said, you know what, like you're a church at 200 that sent 60 people, like you're un-American. It kind of felt like.

Jason Allison (32:26)
Hahaha!

Thad Bergmeier (32:28)
Like you're not thinking like, and so you're asking like, where's it going well? When people just think like, all my resources are here to share. God, I don't know. What do you want to do through us? We'll do it. Right? Seriously, I'm not kidding you, man. Like, yeah, to send 40 % of your church out, that is, and to send them eight miles away in a rural setting.

Jason Allison (32:42)
Yeah, that's very un-American. You're right. It is. I know.

Rob Paterson (32:52)
Mm-hmm.

Thad Bergmeier (32:58)
meaning it was probably a 10 minute drive. But they wanted a gospel outpost in that location for the sake of reaching the next towns. So, I mean, I can tell you stories of churches that are just mobilizing their people well to take the gospel that they drip all the time. have...

They find ways to visibly demonstrate when people walk into church, are you sharing the gospel? Who are you building relationships with? How are you praying for others in your circles of influence? Right? That they tell stories. know, stories create culture. And so they tell stories of... And one of the things that impressed me, was at a church one time that we were walking through and they started telling repeatable stories. And it struck me like the stories that we tell are like...

You know, Rob, like as pastor, you might get up and say, you know, hey, so-and-so led their neighbor and their whole family to Christ in the last month. And the average person sitting out there goes, well, good for him. You know, like I can't do that. But if you told the story of, hey, so-and-so has been praying for six months for their neighbor to come over for dinner so that they can build that relationship well. And their neighbor came over for dinner last week.

Rob Paterson (34:10)
Mm.

Hmm.

Jason Allison (34:14)
Hmm.

Thad Bergmeier (34:15)
And

now the average person's like, I could do that. Right? Like tell stories that take steps that are simple and repeatable that others can really get behind. And so there's lots of churches doing those kinds of things as well.

Jason Allison (34:18)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:26)
Yeah. Yeah, that's,

Jason Allison (34:28)
Wow.

Rob Paterson (34:29)
that's so good. So, Hey, I'm going to ask for some like free council right now. So as you were talking about this great church in Nebraska, you know, the church that I lead is 23 years old. And, you know, we've, we've had campuses that have turned into autonomous churches over the years. There's multiple locations that exist, which is really cool, but now kind of, you know, in our

Thad Bergmeier (34:46)
sauce.

Rob Paterson (34:50)
adolescence, so to say, you know, we just a few years paid off our debt. There's some capital improvements that have been long overdue with our kind of space and those kinds of things. like our real passion is to plant churches and to try to plant five churches every 10 years to have a church planter in residence for a year and then launch them out. And one of the things that is just again, probably one of those magnets that everybody would feel and probably is magnified in a very conservative.

rural setting is people are like, well, we're finally out of debt, you know, to do anything, whether that's fix up our own stuff or, or to launch new things. Like we don't just have, you know, piles of money in the bank. And so that's going to cost us. We may have to go back into debt and there's just sort of this magnet that a lot of our wise, godly people are like, we should just never ever, ever do anything that's going to cost cause debt, you know? And so we,

in some ways, and some of this is just my own personal wiring to where I'm more of a like, let's charge hell with water pistols at all costs. And we'll figure it out afterwards, which, know, the wisdom's probably somewhere in the middle of those two things. So, you know, like, could you speak to that a little bit? Like, you know, people that just have the heart for this stuff, but, you know, just again, significant, important, necessary voices who are just like all caution, all yellow, all let's, let's wait until

You know, we're like so financially robust that we can, we can cover all these things before we start doing them again.

Thad Bergmeier (36:23)
Like so, so afraid of losing, afraid of loss, like take your one talent and bury it in the ground sort of thing.

Rob Paterson (36:30)
You know, that's not mine to say.

Thad Bergmeier (36:31)
Like I'm, no, no, no, well, I

know, like sometimes playing it safe is the most risky thing you can do. I mean, that's what the preparable, the talent teaches us, right? Like, like, hey, I know.

You don't have to launch big, don't have to launch expensive, you don't have to launch by yourself. Partner with other churches in a community, right? And maybe every other year you're sending the main church planter and then next year you're just supporting one and maybe the next time you're sending a handful of people. I mean, there's a lot of ways to do it. It doesn't have to be a cookie cutter model all the time.

But I don't know, at the end of the day, I don't want to get to heaven and someday, God go.

Man, you played it safe. I'm not saying going dad. I'm not saying like, there's probably a lot of flexibility you have by being deaf free.

So, I don't know. Well, no, I mean, I'll send them my account, my account number. We all raise support.

Jason Allison (37:27)
Well, you can send you can send Rob the bill for that one. ⁓

Rob Paterson (37:31)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (37:34)
Yeah. ⁓

Rob Paterson (37:38)
Well, and I do,

love though that just your words of, cause I'd never thought about it exactly like that. Sometimes playing it safe is the riskiest thing we can do. You know, and we don't, I mean, that's not sort of what our gut tells us, right? It's like, well, if we could do this and then this and then this and then this and then this and then this, and we can successfully do all those and keep them going, then maybe we can do the thing we actually feel like God has asked us to do in the first place. And it's like,

Jason Allison (38:05)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:06)
That can be challenging.

Thad Bergmeier (38:06)
I mean, at some level,

at some like, I could probably guess the demographics of your community, but there's, you know, at some level, faith has to be faith. Like, what are you doing that you look back on and say, I'm doing this because God has called us to it and I'm going to trust him. And it may not make a lot of sense.

No, I think you need to have there's wisdom in having plans. I God was a planner, right? Like, so there's there's wisdom in not being carefree and wild and crazy. But. I wouldn't be scared of some risk. And teaching your people to have hands open like. What is it that you would? That you would give up for the salvation of one person?

Jason Allison (38:50)
Yeah, well, that's good.

Thad Bergmeier (38:50)
You know.

You know, one of the sermons I preach a lot is on the Jersine demoniac in Mark five. And if you remember, that's the one with the pigs, the thousand pigs that go in. And, know, if you grew up in a Baptist church, you had the final graph with the pigs going in the water and stuff. But like. The townspeople were upset and angry at Jesus because I think, I mean, they were scared of his power, but also it probably economically crippled their community. On a guy that they didn't like and.

Jason Allison (39:03)
Yep.

Thad Bergmeier (39:20)
they despised. And so, man, to sit there and go, God, I would give up anything that I own right now for the salvation of my grandkids and my kids and my closest personal friends. Would I give it all up for some random person I don't know?

Jason Allison (39:34)
Hmm.

Thad Bergmeier (39:36)
I don't know, sure I would. mean, you know, just be honest with you. I'm not saying it's the right biblical Christian answer.

Jason Allison (39:38)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:42)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (39:44)
Yeah,

I think that's a great question to, I think it's a great question to end on today. let's, that's something that I think every leader and pastor that listens to this podcast needs to wrestle with not only for themselves, but then how do you invite your congregation into that question? What are you willing to sacrifice that one person might be saved? That's just, that's a lot. That's heavy, but it's a good heavy. Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (39:46)
So.

Rob Paterson (40:08)
And Jason,

I think too, if we're being honest, sometimes, and I thought I loved how you talked about it, right? Where you were like, would I do this for my grandkids? Would I do this for my kids? Would I do this for people I know and love? Absolutely, I would give up anything I own. But would I do it for some random person I don't know? Like, right? And so I think sometimes we as pastors, we desperately want our people to be willing to do more and be more sacrificial for the cause of the kingdom.

But if we're being honest, there are moments and seasons where we're not quite there. We want them to do it so we can accomplish it, but we're not doing it. I think, like you said, it starts with us. We've gotta cultivate this in our own minds and hearts and lives, and then it becomes something that we can pass on and equip others with.

Jason Allison (40:48)
Yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (40:55)
Hey, can I just say one last thing on that? like, I think what I'd say to the pastor would be, if you're not doing it and leading and calling people to follow me as I follow Christ, your people aren't going to do it. So if you're not sharing the gospel outside the pulpit, your people aren't going to.

Jason Allison (40:56)
Yeah, yeah.

Thad Bergmeier (41:13)
So.

Jason Allison (41:13)
Well, Thad, thank you for

taking some time to hang out with us.

Thad Bergmeier (41:17)
fun

man. Hey, I want to know when you guys are meeting somewhere to play golf man, invite me. I want to come. Let's go. mean, golf coach, he's probably got to help me a little bit, right?

Jason Allison (41:21)
Okay, we will. Let's do it.

No, he can't help you.

He shows up and drives the bus, you know. No, no, he's not. But yeah, we'll make that happen. That's for sure. Definitely. Well, man, really do. I'm just I'm I'm thankful that we got to sit by each other at that retreat thing. And I'm looking forward to getting together multiple times and talking shop, but also just seeing what God's doing. I appreciate your your.

Thad Bergmeier (41:31)
he's that golf coach, I see.

Yeah, that'd be fun.

Jason Allison (41:51)
Just your spirit, your heart. And I just, know how much you love pastors and churches and, you want to help them. So thanks man for doing all that you do. We loved having you. Yeah. Well, to all our listeners, you know, take some time to like and subscribe. That always helps us out. Share it with some friends, share it on social media, whatever connect with us. We love engaging with you and, and, and finding out what's going on in your neck of the woods and, connecting you to resources and tools that.

Thad Bergmeier (41:59)
Yeah, it's great guys. Thanks for having me.

Jason Allison (42:18)
Hopefully can help you out. reach out to us. Have an amazing week. We love you and we're cheering for you. Take care.