How We Talk About "Them"

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, Jason and Rob discuss the challenges of addressing controversial topics as spiritual leaders. They explore the weight of words, the importance of compassion, and the need for thoughtful reflection before responding to tragic events. The conversation emphasizes the role of debate and discourse in society, particularly in the context of gun control and public safety. They also highlight the impact of social media on dialogue and the necessity of Christ-like responses in a polarized world.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the church talk podcast with Robin Jason. We're glad you joined us this week. Rob, you and I just spent an hour talking without hitting record, and so I kind of feel like we should. We just need to dive in and talk about some things. It's been a crazy, you know, crazy week. We're recording this on September the 12th on a Friday and hopefully you know we can.

We'll drop it Monday. So who knows what will happen over the weekend. But it's been a week full of events, full of things. And I know pastors all over the country are trying to figure out what in the world am I supposed to say on Sunday, if anything. And some are excited to launch into something. Others are worried because we had this week the assassination of Charlie Kirk.

I don't know if we call it an assassination or a murder or someone shot and killed him. And that's what happened. And he was a well-known figure and a very controversial figure to say the least. ⁓ Polarizing.

Rob Paterson (00:59)
Yeah, maybe polarizing because you either

loved him or lots of people loved him, lots of people disagreed with him.

Jason Allison (01:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, you got to preach a sermon on Sunday and stand up in front of your congregation and say, and I know this is coming out after the fact, so it's not going to help pastors for this Sunday. you know, I thought it'd be good for us to take some time and even just process our thinking about this. And by that, I'm giving us permission to basically say some things that we may come back later and say that was wrong.

because we're processing it, right? know, we're not saying we agree, disagree, we're saying this is what's going on. And as spiritual leaders in a community of people, we are trying to figure out how do you think through this considering everything going on? I don't know. That's kind of where I'm coming from. I know this is way more disjointed than most of our, than many of our sessions, but it's where I'm at.

Rob Paterson (01:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and

yeah, and Jason, I would say too, I mean, just sort of speaking from my own kind of internal, know, inside my heart, my mind, my gut, you know, like there seems to, and I wish there weren't that many, but man, you know, when the George Floyd thing happened with the January 6th stuff, ⁓ you know, with,

Jason Allison (02:19)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (02:22)
COVID related issues. know, like there are these moments when, you know, we feel this weight and this pressure of something has just happened. And like, I want to say something. I want to say something that's helpful. I want to say something that's healing. But what do I say? You know, and then you see people who are trying to do that.

Jason Allison (02:41)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:46)
you know, in some ways being celebrated by some and other ways being ripped apart by some. and, and then, you know, those things like make you feel like, there anything I could say that would even be helpful? Because again, like in polarizing situations and when, when there is a loss of life, that is always a very polarizing kind of thing. ⁓ you know, and, and, and I think sometimes we even can become fearful cause it's like, well, I don't want to just like.

Jason Allison (03:06)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:14)
say something and everybody misconstrues it and then, you know, like it actually creates more hurt than it does help. And so, you know, is it even worth it? And certainly this week, you know, with what happened to Charlie Kirk with the Ukrainian woman and her senseless, untimely death, I think there was another school shooting with a couple of kids dying. I think the same day as Charlie's assassination.

Jason Allison (03:32)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (03:41)
It just seems like we're seeing these things nonstop and it's like my heart aches. It aches for these realities. It aches that this is where we seem to be as a country and as a culture. And it aches to actually say something that's helpful and healing. I just a lot of times don't know what that is. And so us having a dialogue maybe out loud that like, what do we say and what do we do?

Jason Allison (03:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I have no idea. Because I mean, you're exactly right. That's the idea is we need to say something. But but what and why and to whom and really on what media, right? You know, as a pastor, when I post something on Facebook or Instagram or Twitter, you know, it it people read it as a pastor making a statement.

Rob Paterson (04:06)
Hmm. What?

Yeah.

Jason Allison (04:29)
which means this is what the church thinks. Like, I mean, that's how people read it. So I can't just say whatever I want, whenever I want, however I'm feeling. Like I have to think about that lens. And so I think that's one of the things when we think about how do we think about this and what do we say, we do need to think about, hey, think about the weight of your words when you post something because it matters. And I've read, you you and I both, we've been

Rob Paterson (04:53)
Mm.

Jason Allison (04:58)
skimming through all the different social media and looking at what some of our good friends have posted who are in ministry and involved in things. We've looked at some other quote unquote famous people, what they've said and not say, and some of them said something quickly that probably didn't come out the way they meant it and they're taking some heat for it. Other people, you could tell they really stopped, thought through it.

and then made some statements and even then got pushed back. Like, so I don't know, you ask how do we think about it? Well, there's a starting point. Don't just start spouting off about.

Rob Paterson (05:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And so Jason, think maybe, and I would like to leave names out just because, and obviously these people were willing to post things with their name on them, but I just have four pulled up here. You know, a couple that I thought when I read them were helpful. And a couple, one that I thought was not helpful. And then one that was more interesting and maybe a little bit

too provocative for the moment. And I just thought maybe reading and reflecting on some of the things people have said, ⁓ I'm not gonna take anything super extreme, just, so one of our friends who's a pastor actually said this, praying for the wife and two girls of Charlie Kirk this morning, and also for the many college students across our country to whom he demonstrated the value of reasoned debate.

Jason Allison (06:05)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (06:24)
advocated for the free exchange of ideas and actively shared his faith. He surely wasn't perfect, but we need more of these things, not less, Lord Healer.

Jason Allison (06:36)
Yeah. Yeah. And what I, what I like about that is everything that was stated there was true. You know, I mean, and everything stated there was stated, with a measured cadence, even, know I'm saying? It wasn't extreme. wasn't opinion. wasn't inflammatory and any, you know, to either dry. was just, and, and yeah, that's one thing about Charlie Kirk. He

his one of his core values, one of his driving forces, whatever you want to call it, was to have debate, right? To use words to discuss things. And I mean, I watched some of the videos and honestly, I didn't know anything about him until this week. I mean, I knew the name, but I hadn't done any deep dive on him. I didn't care. But, you know, watching some of this, he would use reason and logic and would push people beyond the emotional response of, you're a jerk.

to, now wait a minute, let's talk about the facts and let's look at them. And I can appreciate that, you know, like I, and he did it on college campuses, which is a place where those type conversations should happen, right? I mean, that's the whole point of a college degree is to learn how to think and learn how to think with reason, you know, and so I'm.

Rob Paterson (07:36)
Mm.

Think.

Jason Allison (07:50)
I'm for that stuff. And I do think we need more of that in the town square, so to speak, today. Whether or not you agreed with his views, that's a different conversation. And the post you just read, they weren't espousing his views, or they weren't saying yes or no to any of that. They were just saying he was a person who would use reason and debate, and that's a good thing.

So yeah, I like that.

Rob Paterson (08:16)
Yeah,

yeah. So here's, I think that one of the, the one that's a little more provocative might be good for next just because, you know, you, you alluded to this. and I thought it was an interesting thing. Again, I don't know that I would've felt comfortable posting this, you know, kind of the week after, but, a meme with a picture of Charlie said, a friend of mine from college posted this. I just saw a comment that said, I don't support what happened to Charlie.

but Charlie supported what happened to Charlie. And that's what I've been trying to put into words. So for some of the people, and I'm sure there are people who are saying horrific things and even celebrating death, which I don't think is something we should ever do for anybody. mean, we are all image bearers, right? We have sort of the...

Jason Allison (08:56)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Rob Paterson (09:01)
the Imago day kind of indelibly stamped into our soul as people who are God's kids, all of us, whether you even think there's a God or not. And so even when some horrible evil person dies, it's like there's a sadness to that, that I think as human beings, we should always try to have and maintain. But the idea that, which I think is a good one, that Charlie believed so much in

Jason Allison (09:06)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (09:25)
the second amendment and that kind of stuff that, and he said it many times, know, like that some of the unfortunate consequences of that, you know, are worth it, you know, in order to maintain that.

Jason Allison (09:38)
Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, that's a that's a it's a hard pill to swallow. But, he was if nothing else, he was consistent in that. so, you know, there is that I don't think personally, I don't think that price is I think that price is too high to pay. Like when we value our

our right to bear arms over the safety and security of our children. know, that, because I mean, there's all the studies out there say, if a child grows up in a home that has guns in it, they are four times more likely, and it might be higher than four, I don't have the thing in front of me, to die from a gunshot. and you know, gun violence,

Rob Paterson (10:05)
human life.

Jason Allison (10:29)
is the number one cause of death for people 19 years old or younger. I mean, think about that for a second. Gun violence is the number one cause of death. Like, there's a problem. know, yes, is the Second Amendment there? Absolutely. Was it written in a context when that was necessary? Absolutely. You know, is there a place for guns?

Yes, I mean, you and I both hunt like I you got to have a gun to do that. You can't you can't get a deer with a knife. I it may be a bow and arrow, but then is that a you know, is that a gun like?

Rob Paterson (11:04)
do

have a story of a guy who got a deer with a knife, but that's a whole other thing for another day. Well, and again, like you, like you said, Jason, this is coming from two people, you know, who own guns and whatever. So this is not a, you know, kind of anti gun, you know, kind of political kind of thing, but I've, I've, I've often, you know, cause we all, we all get sucked in, don't we? Like we all get sucked in. And so

Jason Allison (11:07)
Yeah, that's yeah, but yeah

Mm-mm.

No.

Rob Paterson (11:29)
when something awful happens when there's a school shooting, whatever, and all of a sudden everybody on the right lines up on the one side and everybody on the left lines up on the other side and then there's all the sound bites and the similar things. so when I hear things like the fork didn't make you fat, it's you using the fork that made you fat, that logically makes sense. I agree with that, right? A gun doesn't kill anybody, it's the person kind of behind that.

Jason Allison (11:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:58)
And so like yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, wait, wait, the fork does make us fat

Jason Allison (11:58)
But let me me let me push back. I mean, just a tiny bit. So the foot. No, you know what makes you fat is the high fructose corn syrup that is used in everything, you know, like, like you go to any other country, they don't they there are regulations against it. So there's a way in which the government and our government policies do play a role.

Rob Paterson (12:16)
Yes.

Jason Allison (12:22)
in the way we live our lives, even in a passive way that we may never completely see or feel. But at some point, someone needs to call that out. And sometimes when they call that out, they sound like a crazy person, right? Because no one thinks about it. But there is a time where we need to have these conversations, and that's it. That's it. They're conversations. These are not fights. These are not art. know, like this is, hey, let's talk about why the food that we eat.

Rob Paterson (12:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (12:51)
is making us fatter and fatter and fatter. Yes, let's also talk about how we are lazy bums and don't exercise. You know, so like I'm not, it's not either or, it's both. How do we do it? And when it comes to guns, yes, you're right. The bullet is actually what kills someone if you really think about it, it's not the gun. But the person has to aim and shoot it and all that stuff. Yes, that is part of it too. It's all there. But we have 400 million guns in America.

We have 300 million people. Like there are more guns than people in America. At some point, someone's got to go, you know, might be something worth looking at. I don't know.

Rob Paterson (13:33)
Yeah, because I'm sure, should everybody have a gun? even in each of our families, could you identify at least one person in your sort of broader family who you'd be like, that person should never be trusted with a firearm? I certainly have people like that in my family.

Jason Allison (13:51)
I can

think of several.

Rob Paterson (13:53)
Well, and I, you know, it's funny, we always joke in my household because my wife, Bethany, you know, she, she is amazing at many, many, many things, but she's not like, she's going to be the one that, you know, breaks a toe cause she like stubbed it into the corner of a table. Cause she was spatially unaware of how close she was to it as she was walking around it, you know, or, you know, she is the least athletic of the four of us. So, so I mean, she would, if she was having this conversation with it, she's likely like,

I wouldn't be intending to point it in the wrong direction, but it might be pointed. like, you know, I mean, so, you know, they're just those things. And, and, so oftentimes when these conversations come up and this is again, not the, the topic today, but I think it's, it's part of the deal, right? And people take their sides and, the right is like, no, like we can't even talk about it. And the left's like, we got to get rid of everything. And from, from my vantage point, it's like, Hey, listen, even as you know,

a right leaning person who is a gun owner and those types of things. I'm like, you know what, show me, let's, first of all, everybody's like, you're not, you're not coming to the conversation in good faith. You know, you have your perspective, you have your goal. That's all you're really doing. You're just trying to trick me into engaging. So then you can kind of take it to your extreme and both sides feel this way. And let's be honest in a lot of respects, both sides are actually doing that.

Jason Allison (15:09)
Yeah.

yeah.

Rob Paterson (15:13)
Here's

what I typically feel in those moments. It's like, show me some reasonable steps we could take, you know, whether that's stronger background checks or whatever, you know, that are going to equal, you know, way less of this kind of stuff. And I'd be all in, all in. Because I don't want people dying.

Jason Allison (15:23)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And those things

do exist. And there are certain states that have them, some that don't. I mean, a great example, Illinois has some pretty strong gun restrictions, like, you know, red flag laws, you know, things like that when they enforce them. Here's the problem. Chicago, right, is in Illinois, but it butts up to Indiana. Indiana has very lax gun laws. So if you live in Chicago and you want a gun,

Just drive five miles into Indiana and you can get one. And it's totally different. You know, the ways to get it or the regulations. So as long as we live in a, you know, the United States and we don't have a federal regulation for this, it so there's it's it's just so complicated. Like is it's not there is not one answer to this there. And it gets even more complex as you work down through the processes that it would take to do things.

And so yeah, it takes some work to get to this. And this is why, you know, someone like Charlie Kirk, who was, you know, talking through things and trying to get the debate out there. can appreciate that part of it. I don't appreciate some of his views. Like I disagree with him on several things and the way he, you know, presented himself and the way he talked to people and, and, his thoughts about people. But that's a different issue. Like, I mean, if he and I were to sit down and talk.

Rob Paterson (16:38)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (16:54)
Those would be things that I would talk to him about, right? Hey, it's the attitude. It's not the heart of Jesus to treat someone that way. It's like, those are the things that I would want to talk about. Whether or not I agree with his idea about a second amendment or about, you know, any of the other political, because I mean, he was basically the guy who helped get Trump elected in 2024. mean, his work, I don't care if you're left or right, people are going to look at him and say his work with

the young voters, it turned the tide. I mean, he was a significant player in that. love him or hate him, he was effective.

Rob Paterson (17:32)
Yeah, for sure. Well, and you know, as we're talking about all this, I do want to say because I've I've seen this, if I've seen it once, I've seen it 100 times maybe where people are like, I wish there was the same level of outrage for the Ukrainian girl or the kids or whatever. And I just want to say a couple of things about that. First of all, like I feel equally sort of gutted by by any loss of life, not just by, you know, the Charlie Kirk.

thing from this week. but I also think just logically speaking, when somebody has a giant platform between versus somebody who like not nobody knew, you know, didn't, didn't, do similar things in, in, in a, in a visible way. I logically that makes sense to me that more people are going to know about be thinking about reacting to and responding to, you know, the Charlie Kirk thing. so I just kind of wanted to say that, you know, for maybe any potential listeners who are like,

Jason Allison (18:14)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:28)
man, why are they just talking about this? Well, we're really not, we're talking about this broader idea and we're just using sort of the most sort of relatable example. ⁓ And, you know, I guess Jason, one of the things that's just been on my mind is I've really wrestled through like, what am I gonna say? How am I gonna say it? And quite honestly, I've commented on a couple of people's things, but.

Jason Allison (18:33)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:53)
I'm planning to say what I'm thinking and feeling a lot more on Sunday to my people at my church than I am gonna venture out to social media in part for this reason. And I think this is kind of the one thing I think is super helpful. Because we all know, I tell people this all the time when I'm doing pastoral counseling and I just say, listen, if you just had a horrible day at work.

Jason Allison (18:58)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (19:17)
If you just had a knock down drag out with your spouse and you don't see a path forward for your marriage, you know, like, or, just something crazy has happened in life. I'm like, I always tell people, give, give it a window of time because I don't, I don't want to go grocery shopping when I'm hungry. I always make bad decisions. I always, you know, I spend way more money. I buy things I shouldn't be putting in my body anyway. You know, if, I can go.

Jason Allison (19:36)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (19:44)
you know, after like a decent nutritious meal where I feel satiated and good.

Jason Allison (19:50)
And I've made a list. I've planned it out. Right. I mean, that makes a huge difference. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:53)
Right, yes.

And so I feel like, and I even saw one person I know who posted something like the day that this happened and then literally the next morning said, hey, I've had a little bit of time. I've removed or edited that post. Here's what I'm thinking now. And I appreciate that. My point is, just for the random person who's gonna say something, that may be different.

then those of us who, because of whatever, our position, our influence in the lives of people, our words are gonna land differently. And I think we have to pay extra attention to, you can't wait forever, right? Like you can't say, I'm just not gonna say anything and never, ever, ever, especially for these things that happen and linger. But saying something immediately,

A lot of times we're gonna get ourselves in trouble and we're gonna say things that aren't true that we don't even believe just because we're saying these things out of emotion, as a response, out of anger sometimes even, as opposed to I've really had a minute to think about this, to pray about it. Even just a few days of healing and reflection can lead us to some way better outcomes.

Jason Allison (20:48)
Yeah.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I had several really witty tweets that I was ready to send out the day of, you know, when I first heard all this and I didn't and I'm really glad I didn't. You know what I'm saying? Like I've never I've never regretted waiting a day to post something right. I just I haven't. Because usually if I wait a day, I'm like, yeah, that was not appropriate. That was.

Rob Paterson (21:21)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (21:35)
You were trying to be sarcastic and witty and you were, but it was not the right time. You know, it just, that was not going to land well. And so I agree with you. You know, I think that's some wise counsel. and, and I would add to it, just run it by someone else. Right. It, you know, the, I want the, the first one you read, know, that, the post, I know that person ran it by two or three other people. Right. There's no way he, posted that without, and that's just wisdom.

Rob Paterson (21:50)
Yes.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (22:02)
That's not, yeah. So I would just add to that, you know, if you're, especially if you're a pastor or leader, which if you're listening to this podcast, you probably fall into that category in some way, say, or you're my mom. but you know, like even then she's a leader at the church now. Right. So I guess she kind of falls into the category. So there you go. But, but yeah, you know, there's just some, some wisdom there. Take a beat, have a few other people, you know, run it by them.

Rob Paterson (22:13)
You

Jason Allison (22:27)
before you put it out there into the ether world, you know, where anyone can take it and spin it. And yeah, let's be smart about this stuff.

Rob Paterson (22:36)
Yeah. Um, so, you know, as we're talking, I'm, I'm thinking, you know, a lot of times if something is true, it's going to be true in, in multiple different fields or, or applications. And then if it breaks down, you're like, this might be true here, but it's just, it's not a universal truth. And so, you know, as I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about how, you know, two things that I've over, you know, 29 plus years of marriage have, have seen, there are two things that are like,

they're like nails in the coffin kind of things to do. The first one is, know, man, we've just had a disagreement, we've just had an argument, you you've said something to me that I'm hearing in a very unkind, attacking sort of way, you know. So mistake number one is responding immediately out of sort of like just this, I'm mad at you, I can't believe you come at me like this or hurt me like this.

Jason Allison (23:10)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (23:33)
so wait, right? The other thing that has hurt and it's probably quite frankly had larger consequences for me and my marriage at times is when we just are so like, no, I'm not going to, I'll just, I'll say nothing ever and I'll just endure it and I'll, and so we just don't say anything about issues that really need to be addressed largely because probably the other person is somewhat unaware of how they're

Jason Allison (23:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:00)
language or their interactions are really making me feel or and I use me very generically because it's usually my wife and my insensitivity. But you know like so don't you can't say something immediately it never goes well but if you never say something you know like at least once a week say something so you know like I really feel like this applies. So I have another example for us of this because we've given we've given a couple examples but

Jason Allison (24:17)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:27)
I have a friend who's a pastor. I'm not going to read all of it because I just want to conceal. also know, and this would probably be the primary demographic for a lot of pastors. He's very conservative in his politics and in his perspective as well. But it was obvious from one of his many posts this week that he is brokenhearted, not only by what took place.

Jason Allison (24:31)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:52)
but by the response he is seeing. And I'm sure by how some people are responding to him and his caring posts. So in the midst of this conversation, I'll just read a couple of little snippets. He basically is chiding the people who are having potentially positive responses and he refers to them as the insanity of the hardcore leftists.

Jason Allison (24:54)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (25:16)
So again, now we're naming, we're pigeonholing, like here's anyone who is or leans or is this way, you're obviously bad. He says, you have to be pure evil to do what I think you're doing. And then he ends with sick and demonic in a public forum on social media. And again, I could totally see how

Jason Allison (25:18)
Thank

Rob Paterson (25:43)
You know, just even one person having an insensitive or kind of a prodding kind of thing could create that emotional response in a person. mean, I am there, but for the grace of God go I, you know, but you know, on social media to basically call people whose perspective is different than yours, even on an important and a very timely thing like this, sick and demonic, like how is that ever going to go?

Jason Allison (25:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, anytime you depersonalize the person who disagrees with you, right, you dehumanize them, then you are no longer in a conversation, right? You have now, you've taken it to another level. And I do think that's where, that's where Christians too often, and I mean, other people do too, but I'm not talking about them, right? I'm talking about us, the church. When we start talking about they in a generic sense,

then we've already lost our humanity in that process because they didn't do anything. A person did, right? And this rings true when I hear people say that the church hurt me. No, no, people in the church did, right? Or this decision caused you pain, but they didn't hurt you.

the church didn't hurt you, people did. And so the moment we move to dehumanize the people who disagree with us, that's when we're already losing our humanity in the process and our faith, honestly.

Rob Paterson (27:17)
In elementary school, I had one teacher who had said this in a slightly different way. He would always tell us, when you move from attacking an issue to attacking a person, you've already lost. So you can disagree about an issue, a topic, whatever, but as soon as you shift from that to, I disagree with abortion, to...

Jason Allison (27:32)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:44)
You know, all those people on the left are evil and in danger of the fires of hell because of their godless demonic position. You know, like now all of a sudden you are going after everybody who even like on the fringes falls into categories and, and, and like, which is interesting though. Cause even as I say that there's a lot of people. And I mean, I probably know a thousand people who would, would hear what I just said and disagree.

because we live in a world where we have seen, and we've seen it for a number of election cycles now, it actually has been effective to attack people, to name call, to do all that stuff, and people are like, yeah, and they get on board. But again, the multiple events in our country that have taken place this week, you're like, well, you know.

Jason Allison (28:21)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:38)
so and so won this election or so, you know, or whatever. So obviously that worked. Well, okay. But when you look at the climate of division in our country and these types of things that are happening with this level of regularity, do you really, like, is it really even on the radar to say that we're winning and that this is working? Because I don't think so.

Jason Allison (28:47)
Yes.

Yeah, well said.

Rob Paterson (29:07)
All right. So I have one more quote that I pulled that I want to get to before we run out of time here. But and I like this one. And so I'm just going to read it again, not naming names, but I just thought this one for me was really, really helpful. This person says, I didn't follow Charlie Kirk. I am a political moderate. I appreciate the right to debate and believe you have a constitutional right to free speech.

Jason Allison (29:09)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (29:35)
But if your post in the last 24 hours was critical of the victim of an assassination and not critical of the assassin himself, you don't really care about gun control. You care about political narrative control. So take a breath, show compassion, and do better.

Jason Allison (29:54)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:55)
I

I guess I liked the first part and the last part in the middle part. felt, even just reading it out, felt a little bit of tension because again, he did a little bit of the, you know, but, there too, I think what he was like, what I took from what he was saying was, you know what, like we've got to be really, really careful with our responses.

Jason Allison (30:02)
He

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think I wish I could remember who I heard this from first so that I could give credit, but I can't remember. So I'll say I made it up. But it's there's a statement that says basically, if your theology leads you to hate people, it's not orthodox. And so this this is where, you know, I'm thinking of.

Rob Paterson (30:37)
That's great.

Jason Allison (30:44)
And you can take this for however you want to take it. But the bottom line is if my theology leads me to be a hate-filled person, it's not good theology. so when you think through your theology, when you think and really you don't think about your theological stance. Think about how you presented it and how it impacts the way you behave and the way you interact with other people. And if it is, if it pushes you to hate them, right, whatever, whoever them is.

then you need to go back and reflect on your own person, on your own theological convictions. You need to work on that. so that's where would, this is where pastors have an opportunity to take the conversation a little bit higher, right? Above gun control, above ideologies and ideologues, above my right for this or that. But let's talk about where does, Jesus said, take up your cross.

Rob Paterson (31:25)
Mm.

Jason Allison (31:37)
Right? And when he said that, I mean, the basic thing behind that was when a criminal was forced to carry his cross, he was forced to submit to the Roman rules that he had broken. Right? That was so he's saying when he says, take up your cross, he's saying, submit to the kingdom of God in a way that says, I'm going to submit to what God wants me to do, even though I already broke the rules. Right? I've already rebelled against it.

but I'm going to submit again to what God has called me to. if you want to know what God calls us to, go back and read the Sermon on the Mount. Go back and read how Jesus interacted with people. Read Paul's letters to say, hey, this is how a church can function well, by loving each other, forgiving each other, bearing with one another.

Rob Paterson (32:14)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that we're actually at New Hope. We just kicked off a series last week. So a few more weeks in this series called Slippery Slope. And this is just, it's all about cultural engagement, right? And for, for however long, like whatever the topic is, well, whether it's alcohol or it doesn't matter. well, we can't go there, you know, cause if you have one sip of wine with your meal, you're going to become a raging alcohol cause it's a slippery slope, right? Like,

We've used this kind of logic. And the point of the series is not only to point out some of the insanity of our culture, but to look at the type of responses the Bible actually calls us to. And what I'm kind of referring to them is slopes worth sliding down. you just, kindness and forgiveness. So not this coming Sunday, but the next Sunday, one of the passages we're gonna look through.

Jason Allison (33:09)
Mmm.

Rob Paterson (33:17)
is Ephesians 432 that says, kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other. And here's the key part, right? Just as in Christ, God forgave you. ⁓ And so the point really is this, as followers of Jesus, our response to things shouldn't just be, you know, what our family thinks and how they want us to respond.

Jason Allison (33:27)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:42)
It shouldn't just be what our political affiliated party thinks and how they want us to respond or what our friend group, we could go on and on forever there. The point is that we need to be so connected with Jesus and spend enough time with him. We know this, right? You hang out with certain people, over time you become more and more like them, which is a very sad commentary for you and I as much time as we spend together.

Jason Allison (33:49)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah. ⁓

Rob Paterson (34:08)
but you know, like, so how do we become like Jesus? How do we get to the point where our responses aren't those other kinds of responses, but they're Christ like responses? Well, I mean, we, we all know this, right? Like we need to have a robust devotional life and quiet time. need to be in the scriptures. We need to become more and more people of prayer. And yes, I feel like even people like us need to be encouraged in these directions because it can just get so easy to keep doing the work without.

kind of the connection in the source. And this reminds me, Jason, of a great story my homiletics professor in college told when he was a little boy, you know, down in North Carolina where he grew up. And he was on the farm, I think hunting, rabbit hunting or whatever with his grandpa. And so they were coming into this ditch and coming up the other side of there's a hill there. And he said, he's this little boy in there.

you know, he and his grandpa walking up this hill and they get to the top and it's steep enough where they need some help. So grandpa reaches out and grabs this fence to help pull them up, you know, to the end. And grandpa didn't realize that was an electrified fence. So he grabs the fence and he says, hallelujah is what comes out of grandpa's mouth. And I love this, right? Because my homiletics professor is reflecting back and he says, I'm sure

Jason Allison (35:18)
now.

Rob Paterson (35:31)
glad that grandpa was the one to grab the fence and not me, because I'm pretty sure that what would have come out of my mouth would have been something drastically different. And the point is that grandpa, like he just had loved Jesus and lived his whole life, you know, in the scriptures, as a person of prayer, you know, really becoming more and more like Jesus so that in a difficult moment, the thing that came out of him, you know, wasn't incendiary or inappropriate.

Jason Allison (35:41)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:00)
It was godly. And man, like what would it look like if we as God's people, as ministry leaders, as pastors, know, as high level volunteers in our local churches, what would it look like if when something crazy happened culturally, if when something, you know, somebody said something insensitive to us in our church or in our home, the thing that came out was not payback, vengeance, wrath.

Jason Allison (36:02)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:29)
but was godliness because we've just spent that much time with Jesus.

Jason Allison (36:33)
Well, pastors and leaders, I hope you were listening because that was gold. Thank you, Rob, for sharing that. That's so great. I'm glad we could end on a note like that, a challenge, right? In the midst of all this craziness, in the midst of everything that's going on, we don't need to get more political. We need to get more like Jesus and live that out where we are, where we live, work and play and help our people do that. So, hey, we would love to hear from you if you

you know, have been going through stuff or maybe it's a struggle and you're trying to figure stuff out, we would be more than happy to come alongside you and help you out. Give us a, give us a ringy dingy through a text or a, through an email, whatever it may be, reach out to us. We'd love to connect with you and just hear what's going on. And we'd love to hear from you how you responded or didn't respond or wished you would have responded this past week and maybe what

some plans you're putting in place to do differently, because let's be honest, something like this is going to happen again. So let's be ready. Hey, have a great week. We're praying for you. We're cheering for you. And we'll talk to you soon.