The Heart of the Caregiver with Mary Tutterow

Summary

In this conversation, Jason Allison speaks with Mary Tutterow, a caregiver, coach, and author, about the challenges and rewards of caregiving. They discuss the caregiver crisis, the importance of community support, and how personal experiences shape one's understanding of caregiving. Mary shares her journey with her daughter who has special needs and emphasizes the need for spiritual reconnection and the transformative power of giving oneself to others. The discussion also highlights the Heart of the Caregiver curriculum designed to support caregivers in their journey, encouraging pastors to integrate this into their ministries.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:00)
Welcome everybody back to the church talk podcast. today it's just with Jason and a very, very special guest because, Rob, my good friend and co-conspirator in this has had an unexpected issue come up last minute and he could not join this particular interview. But as we know, you know, in the past three years of our, teaming up on this thing, he has actually missed like two total.

And that includes six months of being laid up with two hip surgeries. And yet in the midst of that, he still took the time to make sure and record. So I think he has definitely earned a pass. And so we'll let this one slide for now. Not that I won't make fun of him later, but you know, so for all those, you're listening who, you know, like Rob better than me. Okay. I understand. But you're just not going to hear him today and you'll, you'll be okay. I promise he'll be back next week.

Before I dive into our conversation today, I want to remind everybody why we do what we do. You the Church Talk podcast exists to engage, equip and encourage pastors and leaders. And we would love to hear from you. I've been getting some emails and comments and feedback lately that has been very encouraging. And apparently we've been scratching an itch in several different places. And so we just want to let you know, hey, we love you and this is why we do what we do. And we would love to hear.

what's going on and how we can engage you and what we can do. So if you take a minute, shoot us a text or an email. You can do that through the show notes or you can email Rob or I, jason at churchtalkproject.com or rob at churchtalkproject.com. We'd love to engage you and see how we can support you in this journey of ministry. And second of all, if you take a minute and subscribe.

to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts that helps us out a ton and then share it with people who you think would really benefit from some of the conversations that we've had.

Jason Allison (01:51)
Today I have the privilege of talking with Mary Tudorow. Mary is a caregiver, a coach, an author. She and her husband, Wyn, have two adult children. Their daughter, Mary Addison, has cognitive and physical challenges. Their family also cared for Wyn's mom through cancer and dementia. Mary leads ⁓ live and online caregiver groups, as well as workshops, webinars, and retreats. ⁓ She is the author of The Heart of the Caregiver and The Peaceful.

caregiver and and I have been introduced to her and had some conversations with her and I'm just blown away by the ministry that she has and I think it's phenomenal and you know, I cared for or helped my mom care for my dad about 20 years ago as he had 20 years of decline with with MS and 20 years ago he he passed away and so I remember all that went on with that all the stuff and

You know, even in the last 12 hours, I've had two conversations with people, one of whom was a pastor who are dealing with aging family members and what does it look like to care for them? How exhausting it is? How it almost feels like there's no, I don't know, there's no nothing filling you up in the process. And, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, Rob and I had a conversation with Mitch Harrison, who just came out with his book, Running on Full, and he talks about how

We need somebody pouring into us because we are pouring out so much everywhere else. so Mary, I thought just to get started, I have talked to so many pastors who are seeing this idea of being a caregiver, just as a person, right? Caring for family members that maybe are physically or whatever cannot manage things for themselves. And I'm just curious from your experience because you're traveling all over, talking to people over the country. I mean, what is your experience with this? What are you seeing happening?

especially in the church world today.

Mary Tutterow (03:53)
Well, it's just like what you're talking about. It's exploding. mean, soon there will be more people over the age of 65 than there are children in the United States. That's insane. But it's our ministry is for anybody who's caring for someone with a child with special needs, a spouse with a chronic illness like cancer, or anybody who's taking care of people with age related issues.

Jason Allison (03:56)
Mm.

Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (04:22)
or people who are taking care of someone who has mental or addiction issues, mental health or addiction issues. So, I mean, this covers a wide swath of people in the world today. And quite frankly, we are all caregivers of some kind. mean, isn't that really what a pastor is to some degree? know, ⁓ right. We're all caring for somebody. And ⁓ but

Jason Allison (04:27)
Yeah.

supposed to be.

Mary Tutterow (04:51)
there is just a huge level of burnout because we have a caregiving crisis kind of going on. The numbers are so big and there's very little ⁓ physical support and help for it, let alone emotional and spiritual support. So that's what the Heart of the Caregiver is. It's curriculum for your church or there are people who do it at senior centers and community centers and in their homes, but it's a curriculum.

Jason Allison (05:12)
Mm-hmm.

Mary Tutterow (05:21)
of how to reconnect spiritually with God to walk you through having to care for suffering people. Whether it's just one or it's a whole church full of people.

Jason Allison (05:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, and I mean, the most pastors, most of them don't understand exactly what it is to care for someone in that way. Unless they have done it, it's kind of like I tell other people, I can't tell you the weight of being a pastor. I can't explain it to you. You just have to experience it to really understand it. But I think being a caregiver like this is very similar.

because there are parts of it that you just don't even, you don't even realize that are weighing on you in the midst of it. ⁓ But I think it still weighs on you and no one else can really see that. And so as I was looking through all your stuff, like that's something I see, it's almost like you're basically saying with this curriculum, with all of the ministry that you do is we see you and we see what you're going through. And while we can't fix it,

we want to walk with you. And I think a lot of pastors would love to know how to do that. You know, like they, they, it's not that they don't want to, it's they literally don't have a clue. ⁓ so maybe help us out, like tell, tell us a little bit about, know, why you wrote this, because I know your story is, it's really the, the, I don't know, the impetus for, for a lot of this. And so maybe share a little bit about that. That would be great.

Mary Tutterow (07:03)
Well, ⁓ our daughter was born 33 years ago with a serious seizure disorder. She was seizing hundreds of times a day and ended up having to have half of her brain removed. And, you know, we knew she'd be mentally and physically challenged for her whole life, but I had had a big job and a big career and my husband had a big job and a big career. And of course he went on to continue paying the bills and

I just turned into a green jello stuffed into gray sweatpants. I, you know, I had to give up my career. you know, was, I was lost in a world with my first child in a world of medical crises constantly. We were in and out of hospitals all the time. I was living on the floor of hospitals all over the country looking for a cure for her at the time. But I noticed all around me, there were other families, not just

Jason Allison (07:33)
Yeah. ⁓

Mary Tutterow (07:57)
whose children had the same condition as my daughter, but they were just lost in this world of trying to help someone live a life but with serious disabilities, whether they were cognitive or physical. And I saw it in the world of seniors. Like I said, I saw it in the faces of other people who had a child with ⁓ mental health and even behavioral health issues, you know?

that people just seem so lost in my prayer was, what's the common denominator? What is the common denominator in all of this? And God started revealing scripture to me that comforted our family and comforted me. And the theme really became whenever we are asked to lay down our lives for others, because that's what you do. You've got to put them first.

Jason Allison (08:54)
Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (08:57)
because they have more serious medical needs and all. Just like you said, your friend's going, who's there to fill me up? Same with the pastor, who's there to fill me up? It's the whole idea that another person's suffering is triggering unfinished business in you.

Jason Allison (09:18)
Oh, okay, now you went from preaching to meddling. Tell me, let's dig into that a little bit. What do you mean by that?

Mary Tutterow (09:23)
I'm

And that's what these two curriculums are about is you've got to reframe this. Otherwise you're totally out of control. Like with me, seizures were running my life, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, cancer begins running your life and you believe I have no more control over my life, right? I can no longer have peace. I can no longer do this with peace and joy. I'm just a frazzled mess, right? And now I start to mistreat the person I'm caring for.

I have no patience for my congregation and all their whining, right? I no longer have patience for my mother-in-law at playing her stupid games, know, God rest her soul. But what I discovered and what the Lord showed me was it's not them. They're not the problem. The problem is you and how you respond to it. Because you're not letting me love you first and fill you with what you really need.

Jason Allison (10:17)
Hmm.

Mary Tutterow (10:26)
You're going into this situation thinking it's on your shoulders, that you've got to be responsible, that you've got to cure the cancer, you know, that you've got to solve the problems of the people that are constantly dumping on you, and that's not it at all. It's learning how to truly shift your life into a full dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit to guide you, to fill you, to give you the love that you're looking for from imperfect people. They're not going to give it to you.

Jason Allison (10:41)
Hmm.

Right?

Mary Tutterow (10:56)
Even your best friend isn't going to give it to you, right? And so it's learning how to rely fully on the love and the power and the wisdom and ⁓ the timing and all the amazing things that are available to you through the power of a life in Christ. That way you be fed and filled and go into each day no longer feeling inadequate and overwhelmed and exhausted. You are filled.

Jason Allison (11:14)
Hmm. Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (11:25)
and you have all the love in the world to give a never-ending supply because it's coming from him through you. He's caring for the people. He's doing it through you.

Jason Allison (11:35)
Wow.

Yeah, that to me is, ⁓ I think it's vital for people to really grasp this isn't that you are doing something wrong or they are doing something wrong. Like this is a ⁓ process really of, mean, sanctification for you, you know, like it's part of your growth and the following Jesus is not about everything being hunky dory and fine, right? Jesus said,

You know, he says, my burden is light, my yoke is easy. But then he says, people will persecute you. And by the way, take up your cross and follow me. Like those are two. Those things live in tension all the time in our lives. And so he said, I want you to I want you to live a full life. And I know people who are dealing with who are caring for someone who requires so much attention, so much time and sacrifice that it doesn't feel like I'm really getting, you know,

the good life, whatever that means. But you know, we have these expectations that seem to be, I don't know, like just not being met and then we get angry, right? And we start, so yeah, I love the way you frame that.

Mary Tutterow (12:44)
Right. But you need that paradigm

shift. Yeah, you need that paradigm shift, Jason, to realize that living your full life. We live in a world that tells us living a full life is having a nice car, a nice home, a happy family, a good figure, no wrinkles. You know, it's a materialistic world. But coming into the world of loving and caring for another person. And this is, think, where most people have their biggest aha within our groups.

is when you show them the very nature of God himself is giving, is giving himself away. In all of nature, a rose can't smell their own fragrance. An apple tree doesn't eat apples. Okay? Everything was created to give itself to the corporate whole, to everything. I mean, even grass and cattle and sunshine and it all is...

Jason Allison (13:26)
⁓ Wow.

Mary Tutterow (13:43)
to do something for the rest, for the whole, okay? It all plays a part. Then Jesus comes along in a very human and physical body and shows us that. And we get stuck on the part of, okay, I'm covered by his blood. But he also showed you, you are here to give yourself away. God imbued you and put you on this planet with your gifts and talents during the time and place he put you here for such a time as this.

Jason Allison (13:47)
Hmm.

Mary Tutterow (14:12)
but it is to give yourself away. And yet the world is screaming at you, you need to build your life up. You need to have more for yourself. You need to have more time. And once you start giving yourself away from the truth of who you are in Christ, not from an individual trying to please God, but as an individual that is fully connected and filled by God in the truth of who you are in Christ,

Jason Allison (14:15)
you

Mary Tutterow (14:41)
giving yourself away the way he intended you to, that abundant life starts happening. That contentment and satisfaction of knowing that you, and you're learning to love on a higher level, you're becoming more and more dependent on God on a higher level, it has nothing to do with, I didn't get to go to Italy this summer. Right?

Jason Allison (14:48)
Hmm.

Right, right, right,

right.

Mary Tutterow (15:06)
think this is what retirement was going to look like. I married a man who I thought was going to take out the garbage for the rest of my life and now he doesn't even remember my name. I'm disappointed. I can't live like this anymore. My life is crashing in. But once you redirect that sweet soul to now you get to know the truth of who you are in your true identity, it's not just because it's who you thought you were and what you thought life was look like. Now you're walking in the truth of who you are. What God has equipped you to do.

and he's calling you higher through it.

Jason Allison (15:37)
Wow. that's great. That is really good. I was speaking at a church in the DC area a couple weeks ago and one of the points of the message out of the text was, basically, we were created for community and we can only embody and grow as a follower of Jesus within the context of community because how else can you learn to forgive if you're not in a community of people where you have to forgive someone?

or you have to seek forgiveness, right? I mean, how else can you grow if there's no one else around you to love and to give and to sacrifice for? And so like that there's a power in that that, you we think, it just makes us all happy. No, no, no. It's in that crucible of relationships that we really began to to figure out, as you just said, who we really are in Christ. So I love that. So the logo, I I got to ask you about this because I think this.

Mary Tutterow (16:14)
Exactly.

Jason Allison (16:33)
Dovetails perfectly into what you were just saying the the logo for the heart of the caregiver. It's four hearts basically and and I'll you know people are gonna have to go to the website which I'll have in the show notes but heart of the caregiver comm I mean, it's pretty simple And go look at it. But tell me about it because I love the story behind it because it's not just a You you went to fiber comm and outsourced it, you know, like I mean

Mary Tutterow (16:58)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (17:00)
There's a lot in this that I think is really, really cool. tell me about the logo, the four hearts kind of joined together the way they are.

Mary Tutterow (17:09)
Yeah, it's four intertwined hearts. And it was because I realized, I mean, now remember, this is me. I had been an anchor woman and running an international public relations firm. Okay. So I was used to, it's all on me. It's all about me. It's all about what I know, my education, my career, everything. And I very quickly learned that in order to be able to love someone who was suffering, my own child, watching my child suffer and probably die,

I had, like you said, community. This is four intertwined hearts and it's God's heart, my heart, the heart of the person I'm caring for, and then the heart of community. And in the middle of those four hearts coming together, that is the crucible that supports suffering because the cross forms in the middle of the hearts. And you can't just do it as an individual trying to take care of your husband or your child or whatever.

everything out, it'll pull you completely apart. It's really couching suffering in community of those four parts, just like you said.

Jason Allison (18:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. And part of the reason I love it is because I feel like the church in general is, and especially in America, we've gotten so individualistic, right, that we focus on the individual and we forget that it is community that actually is, you know, that's what it's all about. It's about operating within a community, being part of a community. And that does mean I have to

kind of die to myself, right? My own wants and needs for the sake of the community, not in a weird cultish way, but in a, you know what, if I'm gonna follow Jesus and Jesus is at the heart of this community, then I gotta figure out how to operate within this community. And that's also then where I'm gonna draw strength when I don't have the energy to keep going because I have someone else in my life that is requiring.

a lot of me. ⁓ And so I love that you deal with that in the curriculum and in the conversations that the curriculum really is it's geared for a small group setting, right? It's not like a teacher gets up in lectures. Tell me some logistics of it just so pastors understand.

Mary Tutterow (19:34)
No.

They're workbooks, okay? And so they lead the discussion of the small group. And then there are videos on Right Now Media that you can get for free to go along with it, to stream with it. And if you don't have Right Now Media, you can get the videos off my website. But ⁓ the idea is once you see that there are other people who are struggling with this, that's a huge healing factor. Again, it's the element of community of going, I'm not alone. This is hurting.

But also I found in the early years that small groups or support groups really were very toxic. They're called pits of empathy because it's a bunch of people sitting around and going how terrible it is. And yes, they're very helpful for things like discussing what might be the next step for your treatment, who's a good resource.

what kind of medication is helping, who's some good doctors to see, that kind of stuff is wonderful when you're in a support group. But so often, getting down in the pity of the whole thing and wallowing with other people is, you do need to share it. You do need to get it out in the open, yes. But I like to say that ⁓ we jump down in the pit with the ladder out of the hole. Because...

Jason Allison (21:03)
Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (21:04)
at the end of nine or 10 weeks, however long you take to do this curriculum, you will have changed. You will have been introduced to scripture and the power and presence of the Holy Spirit in ways that you will realize you've been looking at this wrong and that there's a whole nother resource available to you and that what you are doing is the very calling of Jesus.

Jason Allison (21:10)
Hmm.

Wow, that's powerful. mean, to go through everything and come out and say, wait, this is the calling of God on my life. so that just, it redeems it in a way. Like, I mean, it doesn't fix it, but it at least redeems it in a lot of ways. ⁓ Well, I mean,

Mary Tutterow (21:48)
Well, know,

God didn't stop the Holy Smoke Brothers from having to go into the fire, the fiery furnace, you know. He goes into it with us. That's the whole point of becoming an overcomer and things that, I mean, it's just like going into crucifixion. Something that looks like the very end of you is actually an invitation to a new beginning when you do it in Christ with the Holy Spirit. ⁓

Jason Allison (21:54)
Right. That's right. That's right.

Mary Tutterow (22:16)
That's how you transform evil. Doesn't get to win. Evil is winning right now in this world of caregiving. People are so bitter and so sad and feel like they've been so forgotten and so abandoned even by the church. know, so many families feel like because I can't come to church on Sunday because my husband has Parkinson's now and I can't get there. I've got to stay home and care for him. I've been abandoned by the church, but that's not true.

Jason Allison (22:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (22:45)
And this kind of victory is undoing this mess that is having a field day in people right now. People can leave feeling, I understand now. And I see how it brought out the worst in me, to bring out the worst in me so that I can be healed from that worst. I mean, it really is taking victory on all levels.

Jason Allison (23:01)
Mmm.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, so along those lines to kind of flip the conversation, I've heard you refer to people with disabilities in our lives who require help and support. You refer to them as gifts, right? As a gift ⁓ in your life. Tell me how you came to that conclusion and why you would say it that way.

Mary Tutterow (23:36)
Jason, thank you so much for asking that. Because for me, I was a very self-centered, egotistical, materialistic, upwardly mobile user of people. Every person I met I saw as a potential client. I saw as billable hours. I had fully gone into the feeding frenzy that the world creates of us consuming each other. And suddenly,

I'm given a child who can't conform to any of the patterns of what I was taught a worthy human being would become. That she needed to be educated and she needed to be polite and she needed to look people in the eye and she needed to ⁓ participate in certain kinds of activities and give back to society and go to church and get married and give me grandchildren.

And here's this child that can't do any of that. And yet she and her suffering drove my husband and I to our knees and to the foot of the cross. Because we were very country club Christians. We just went for social reasons. But she and her suffering, not being able to quote scripture, not being able to, you know, confess her sins, none of that. She...

And to this day, I mean, she's 33 years old and she still has seizures every day. She keeps us humble and fully relying on God. you know, and it's like with my mother-in-law, she never really liked me. We didn't get along. I married her only son, you know, and so it was a constant passive aggressive manipulation, constant, constant, constant. But when I had to actually care for her, right,

Jason Allison (25:32)
Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (25:33)
I thought how horrible this is, but suddenly there was this ginormous shift in she is teaching me how to overcome my selfishness and self-centeredness and how to overcome and forgive and how to, and not in, bless your heart. You just can't help it. You're just a mean lady, but really forgiving her and seeing her as being fully human, beloved by God, worthy of my blessing.

Jason Allison (25:47)
Hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (26:02)
of her. know, what a shift was happening in me because I was having to take care of these people and they are truly gifts. And that's the other thing we've institutionalized care so much even in the church, but it's the weakest members who are the ones is where God's power is made perfect because they force us to come in to die to ourselves.

Jason Allison (26:02)
Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (26:32)
and learn how to live from a supernatural love that's provided to us.

Jason Allison (26:37)
Yeah, so last week I was at a church in New Jersey. They were celebrating their five-year anniversary as a church. you know, was celebration, cool stuff, know, hundreds of people there. you know, all these, did six baptisms that day. Like it was just, was a celebration. In the front row, and you know, there's 200 plus people sitting in this, in this room. In the front row, there was a girl,

don't know exactly how old she was. couldn't see her that well, but you know, she was teenager maybe, ⁓ definitely some kind of down syndrome, some kind of something. Again, didn't, I couldn't see her, so I can't tell you all the details, but you know, she would shout out every so often at very inopportune times, ⁓ you know, because that was just, that's, you know, that's what, that's just it. Like, you know, she wasn't trying to do anything wrong. It just is, and what I loved was,

because I knew she was a member of this community along with the family, right? And no one batted an eye. Like no one gave them that look, you know, the look that people give of, hey, why don't you get your disruptive child out of here kind of look, you know? I mean, even the pastor who, you know, obviously knows the family and so forth, never even, it didn't phase him when he was preaching. And so to...

see a community like that who has been formed by Christ in such a way that to have someone in the midst of the service who, in a lot of the sanitized presentations of Christianity that we try to give, right, that take any of the edge fringe stuff and we just pretend like it's not there or we cover over anything that's not, you know, perfect and excellent and all those things, to see that lived out in a community, it was such a

It just warmed my heart to see that and to say this, this is one of the reasons this church is exploding because in this community, because it is genuinely being the body of Christ and welcoming those who maybe don't have it all together, right? Who can't conform to all that. And so I see what you mean when you talk about people in this situation as a gift, because it does form us, like the situation, if we allow it.

Mary Tutterow (28:50)
All right.

Jason Allison (29:01)
I mean, I also know people, I know people who have been in that situation and it's really jaded or, you know, it's sent them in the wrong direction. ⁓ Partially because they didn't like your four hearts, right? They didn't have people around them who were helping them be formed by the situation and walking with them. And I think that's why I just love, I love the curriculum that you've created. I love the support networks that you're, you know, forming and so forth.

Mary Tutterow (29:02)
If we allow it.

Jason Allison (29:30)
because I just feel like that it is a void in the church right now. There's a big gap there that I think pastors especially need to know about. I'm not saying every pastor needs to create a whole new program. Like you've already done the work. ⁓ It's really just saying, let's tap into this because I guarantee you, I don't care how big your church is.

You've got five or six people in your church that are dealing with this issue in some way, whether it's an aging parent or a child or, know, whatever it may be. And I don't know. I just feel like we need to keep raising the attention to this. We need to keep putting this out there for, because again, my mom for 20 years, it was caring for my dad while working full time while, you know, all this.

And so, you know, and I saw that just the the it was just hard, you know, she never let on like she wouldn't, you know, but I knew it was. And she did have family members who were right there helped. And she had a church community that was supportive. ⁓ But, know, it just drained her. And so to see to see that there are some there's hope out there, there's some some stuff. If a pastor was wanting to reach out, maybe give

Give a couple what's the best way if they wanted to look at this curriculum or or if they wanted to, you know, get it going. What are some things they should do?

Mary Tutterow (31:04)
Well, go to the website, which is theheartofthecaregiver.com. And we have a whole leader support page. And you can download some things and watch some videos. And you can reach out and say, need help. And we have people who will help you get a small group started in your church. ⁓ But I think one thing I want to say to pastors is it's just not one more thing you have to do. This is pretty much plug and play.

You know, and I know that very often parents of children with special needs will come. It happened to us. I mean, for years, this is what was going on when we were looking for a place to remain as a family. mean, basically, our original church said, we can't, we don't know what to do with you. You know, I don't know how you're going to worship here as a family, which was heartbreaking, but it was true. But you don't. I mean, I think when

pastors encounter people who are prickly and angry and upset because they you know My husband was on your vestry for 40 years and now he's got Parkinson's and y'all don't know what to do with him, right? No I'm a pastor. I don't have anybody with Parkinson's in my life. I don't know what to do with him but our solution is minister to her and once and once she

Jason Allison (32:18)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (32:32)
begins to see herself in her situation. She can love him with the hands of Jesus and with an attitude that's very different. And she can extend grace and mercy to the church and she can tell you how to love them. Whereas right now all she is is angry. It's the same thing with special needs families demanding, you know, we can't come to church unless you build a ramp or until you have a special needs ministry.

But two hours on a Sunday isn't going to solve the problem that you and your husband are probably getting a divorce and that you've got tremendous pressure from your work, just like your mom did. All the other things are happening behind the scenes. Two hours on Sunday isn't going to fix that. Minister directly into that family with this and bless them to get back in touch with who they are in Christ. And then you can work with them. They can begin to work again from

place of grace and mercy and peace and love and joy and help you build something. You don't have to go hire staff, designate a rim and build a ramp. Minister to the family first. That's my motto, family first. And then things.

Jason Allison (33:36)
Right?

Yeah.

I like that.

Yeah, I like that because it's very, I mean, first of all, it's very practical. you're not trying to say you got to change everything and redo the entire church just for this one family. You know, like you're saying, no, no, incorporate them into the body and meet them where they're at and help figure, you know, yes.

Mary Tutterow (34:05)
But make them unprickly first. They're hard to incorporate

into the body when they're still... I mean, because what you were talking about that you saw happen in that church, those people had become unoffendable, like that wonderful book that came out a couple of years ago. Because they've learned a person with Down syndrome shouting at the front of the church is just a person with Down syndrome shouting at the front of the church. Everything that you might think and go, my gosh.

That's your own ego and pride and expectations yelling out. That's not the truth of what's going on there. Right?

Jason Allison (34:37)
Yeah.

Yeah, I

love that. I love the way you frame that. That's really good. That's really, really good. ⁓ Let me just let's just wrap up with I want to ask you a question that may or may not have anything to do with the topics. And by the way, I'm going to your website and stuff will be in the show notes. And, you know, if somebody can't remember exactly, please look at the show notes, go visit the website, look at the curriculum. You're going to love it. It's worth your time. ⁓

What is God teaching you right now? And it doesn't have to do with anything that we're talking, I'm just curious.

Mary Tutterow (35:17)
it's big. It's how to live from what's unseen.

Jason Allison (35:22)
Okay, you gotta explain that a little bit. That's a great, I love that. Tell me more.

Mary Tutterow (35:23)
Thank

⁓ It's just been happening. He's been unfolding so many things in my life through what I can't see, what you can't even really chart. All you can do is see it in the rear view mirror and go, you know, and it's trusting. ⁓ It's believing. It's faith. It's ⁓ it really is about what's unseen. And then I, you know, because we have an adult daughter with special needs.

I'm always looking for what's the next best thing that's happening in that world for people. And right now I've gotten immersed in the world of the telepathy tapes, which was an explosive podcast that revealed that these nonverbal, non-speaking people, once you give them another way to communicate, ⁓

They go back and forth to heaven all the time. And you kind of go, ⁓ I'm not real sure about that. Where is that in the Bible? And I don't know. And sure enough, we took our daughter to ⁓ get, and she was able to reveal to us that she knows stuff on the most profound levels. How would she know? How would she know?

Jason Allison (36:26)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (36:48)
And we're

working with churches throughout the country who have a lot of these kids, you know. And somehow, I mean, I didn't mean to, but somehow I just stumbled into this world and I'm coming upon so many people that the world would think you're dumb, you're ignorant, ⁓ you're nonverbal, therefore you have nothing to offer anybody.

And what they are connected to, the unseen, is just... I don't even know what to think of it yet, but God is working on me with regard to this whole... Mary, you don't even know. There is a whole... More than you can ask or imagine. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not real. And... Where's your faith,

Jason Allison (37:20)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I yeah,

yeah, no, I totally understand what you're talking about. that's, it is truly unseen. You know, it's not a, and we're not gonna be able to convince people through scientific logic, you know, from an earthly perspective that there is an unseen realm. And I agree with you. There is an unseen realm that, and we've talked about this on the podcast. So, but then about it.

year ago, guess we went, we did a few episodes where we worked through even Heiser and his book, The Unseen Realm. And some of those things, ⁓ worked through some of that, just saying, we don't get it. You know, I, not saying I'm an expert on it. I don't even know what to think about some of it, but there is definitely, and there is something about, you know, those who are, have such, such limitations from our perspective physically.

Mary Tutterow (38:26)
Right.

Jason Allison (38:36)
and maybe mentally, emotionally, whatever, God is doing something there that we may never know until the other side of heaven, right? And that gives a little bit of hope. And it helps us say, wait a minute, let's be open to what God is doing, even if it doesn't fit our theology.

Mary Tutterow (38:54)
well.

Many, many years ago when my husband and I also founded an organization called healing farms.org. It's day programming for adults with disabilities. That was 25 years ago. But in the middle of a board meeting, he had me stand up and read Isaiah 61. And I kind of was like, what? And with what's happening in the world with all this today, you know, it's about setting the prisoners free, right?

And then he talks about them rebuilding the ancient ruins. And to some degree, I can see this so happening because my daughter keeps, once she's learned this method of communicating, she keeps telling me the word breakout, breakout, breakout. And I met a 10 year old boy who knows members of my family who are on the other side, a 10 year old kid.

who had a message for me from somebody on the other side. And you're wondering, maybe it's in their brokenness and in their former captivity because they couldn't make their bodies work and participate in the material world. They've been participating in a spiritual world. I don't know. That's not what this podcast is about. I don't know. But it's all, I do believe there's so much unseen that is getting ready to come to the forefront, far more than just theology.

Jason Allison (40:12)
Yeah.

Mary Tutterow (40:23)
⁓ that will be unifying, quite honestly.

Jason Allison (40:27)
Right, right. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate the work that you have done. I appreciate that it grew out of, you know, your own circumstances and how you were able to redeem that, to really lean into that and out of it produce really, I would call it fruit, right? That other people now are benefiting from. And like you said, you know, the sunlight doesn't consume sunlight. It exists to send it out. I love that. That's a great image. And so,

Mary Tutterow (40:56)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (40:56)
I

appreciate that and thank you for your time and for being part of this. And I will put all this stuff out so people can check it out and see how it might be a ministry within their church that could be good. Yeah, so thank you for your time. I really do appreciate it.

Mary Tutterow (41:16)
Thank you. And put in there that we've been doing this for 10 years. So this is just a brand new thing. We've got lots and lots of testimonies. So yeah. And I appreciate you giving me a place to talk about it, Jason. It's my passion. So thank you.

Jason Allison (41:19)
Yeah, yes, yes.

Yeah, yeah.

of course,

of course. Well, to all our listeners, we appreciate you and we look forward to hearing from you. Take a minute and share and subscribe this episode, especially if there's ⁓ people in your life or in your ⁓ ministry influence who would benefit from learning more about the heart of the giver. And I appreciate you and we look forward to talking to you again next week. Have an amazing week.