Making Bookkeeping Sexy with David George

Summary

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson discuss the critical role of bookkeeping in church administration with expert David George. They explore common challenges faced by churches in managing finances, the importance of clear communication with bookkeepers, and the need for user-friendly accounting software. The conversation also touches on designated giving trends and how churches can better manage their financial resources to support their missions effectively.

Check out Ministry Bookkeeping Partners

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Personal Updates
02:26 The Importance of Bookkeeping in Church Planting
05:09 David George's Background and Experience
07:53 Challenges of Financial Management in Ministry
10:35 Common Issues in Church Accounting
13:28 Recommended Bookkeeping Software for Churches
16:31 Navigating Receipt Management and Expenses
22:46 Navigating Church Management Software
29:21 Streamlining Financial Processes in Churches
33:03 Establishing Effective Budgets
36:46 Identifying Financial Leaks in Church Operations
39:41 The Role of Designated Giving in Church Finances

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Welcome back to the church talk podcast with rob and jason rob Man, it's really good to see you. How are you? It's been like hours at least since I saw you last

Rob Paterson (00:13)
You know, it's good, although, you know, as we were just discussing a few moments ago, tis the season where a few weeks from now, my oldest son goes back to school. And it's funny because a couple of weeks ago, you know, we got the, the little invoice for the next semester's bill, which my wife and I have been paying as we go. And, and I looked and you know, it's been right around this specific amount. So like we sort of know what to expect.

every semester. And, and we also knew that he had one last high school scholarship that didn't pay until after his sophomore year. So I'm like, you know what, with that hitting for this semester, like this semester is only going to be like 900 bucks, and it's like $44,000 a year school, right? So I'm like, this is going to be a sweet one. And then I got the bill, and it was $1,500.

David George (01:05)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (01:06)
I'm like, son has sent you like email saying you can talk to us. Well, there's a specific form. don't want to those deals. It's like, great. Awesome.

but you're never gonna get payment and don't send bills to me and don't call me. Well, sir, we can't do that, know, like whatever. So anyway, Christopher filled out the form and we just found out that one of his music scholarships that applies and is always applied for some reason was not on there. anyway, you know, I'm back down off the ledge, but it's... ⁓

David George (01:26)
you

Jason Allison (01:34)
I

worry, Rob, because sometimes you get so upset and I just, you know, I just don't want you driving out there and punching somebody. know how you get. Oh, you're not like that. I know. I'm just saying. No, that's frustrating because you don't know. That's the problem is they keep everything kind of hidden. I don't even think they understand it half the time. Yeah, that's why. Yeah. So.

So, okay, well, at least that's back down. Does that mean you're gonna be able to afford to give me one of your Scotty Cameron putters now instead of me having to buy it?

Long pause.

Rob Paterson (02:10)
No, but it does mean that I'd still, for you, I would still sell you one at a significantly lower amount than I paid for it.

Jason Allison (02:19)
Well, see, there you go. You're such a friend. You know, I don't care what your wife says about you. I think you're awesome. Yes, well, so it is August and we are talking about making church structures sexy. And last week we spent some time talking about, you know, governance structures and just the organization of the church. And so this week I thought we'd bring in a new friend, someone who's

Rob Paterson (02:21)
Yeah?

Amen.

Jason Allison (02:46)
partnered with Converge, which is the organization you and I both are connected with over the years in various capacities. But it really comes down to bookkeeping and especially I run into this. don't know about you when you planted. But, you know, when I planted a church, the bookkeeping side of things was just scary to me because I thought for sure as soon as I wrote something wrong, did something wrong,

you know, the government agents would be coming in and they'd take me away to some Guantanamo Bay place and I'd never see the light of day again. And it just overwhelmed me. And I thought I was a relatively intelligent person. And so figuring that stuff out is important. And our guest today actually works with several church plants that are connected with Convergement Atlantic in helping them make sure their bookkeeping is done right. So Rob, we have with us today David George. He is...

David George (03:21)
you

Jason Allison (03:38)
the I guess founder you could even say of ministry bookkeeping partners and I'll put links in the show notes and everything so you can go check him out. It is, it is. That's right. We're making, we're making bookkeeping sexy today. But yeah, so let me just read a couple things about that I know about David and you know, he's first and foremost, he's a passionate follower of Jesus and he's a family man. He loves getting away in his RV.

Rob Paterson (03:45)
That is a sexy organization title, Jason.

David George (03:47)
Right?

Jason Allison (04:05)
And I have questions about that. And with this family, which again, more questions, my family in a small space on wheels for a long time, probably not a good idea. But yeah, usually, you you're off to you love adventures and stuff like that. Historically, you have been a missionary for five years, which sounds exciting. And you were on a local church staff for another three years. And all of that has come together to basically help you come alongside

David George (04:18)
you

Thanks.

Jason Allison (04:31)
pastors in such a way that you can help them basically muddle through all the stuff

that they're looking at and have no idea but you look at and it's a clear picture and you know exactly what to do. So David George, welcome to the Church Talk Podcast.

David George (04:47)
Well, thanks guys, I really appreciate you having me on it's a pleasure and I do have to make one confession here. Actually you didn't notice I'm currently in my RV right now. Ooh I'm in my driveway, but I am in the RV And here's what our AC went out yesterday so what has AC RV so I'm like

setting up for work in the RV for the day. it's, you know, multi-use there. can get away, but also stay cool. Stay cool.

Jason Allison (05:16)
Yeah, I

Rob Paterson (05:17)
You know

Jason Allison (05:18)
can't argue.

Rob Paterson (05:18)
David, gotta I gotta follow up question to this too. So are you using like your home Internet signal that you can reach from your RV? Because if you had like you know like Starlink or something like that in your RV, we might start to be like wow like this is a legit setup here. Yeah.

David George (05:21)
Yeah.

I am.

No.

Really impressive. Yeah, no,

if I'm traveling, I do just use my phone. But you know, that works pretty well, nice and secure. But in this case, yes, this morning I had to go and take the extender router, whatever, I'm not that technical. And I put it in the window, like closest to the RV so that it could get out here. yeah, where my office is in our house and we have to, long story, two AC units, the one upstairs went out.

Rob Paterson (05:40)
Okay.

David George (06:03)
It was over 100 degrees in there yesterday. it's like RV air conditioning. It works. So I am sitting in there now. Thankful for the RV. Yeah. Totally off topic.

Jason Allison (06:11)
I love it.

Rob Paterson (06:13)
Perfect.

Jason Allison (06:14)
Yes. No, it's well, I mean,

so here's the thing. I remember several weeks ago, the church AC went out on a Friday. And so what do you do by Sunday? Right. You know, that's going to cost a pretty penny. And so this does bring us right around the bookkeeping. Right. Do you have any idea how much money you have in the bank account? What do you do when the emergencies happen? I mean, I don't know.

David George (06:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

It does.

Rob Paterson (06:33)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (06:41)
From your perspective, as you come in and you work with churches, why is it so important to have a clean set of financials when you're thinking through this?

David George (06:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. mean, you hit right there is ministry, right? Obviously, we have those issues of taking care of the building, taking care of our staff. But then there's just we don't want to be caught up in all of those things. Like those are the things that have to happen. But our heart is ministry. And that's what we want the funds for.

And if you don't have a clear picture on where we're at, fund wise, how can we really move forward and be able to do the ministry things that we want to do in every aspect, whether that's outreach or just the regular ministries of the church. We're trying to keep all that together, right? And having the clean books is going to allow us to do that moving forward. ⁓ Yeah. And I mean, that's that's the bottom line. And then also

Jason Allison (07:39)
Yeah.

David George (07:43)
when these repairs come up. Where are we? Because they're going to life's gonna hit and it's it's gonna happen. Always on a Friday, maybe a Saturday if you're really lucky.

Jason Allison (07:45)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (07:45)
Haha

Jason Allison (07:47)
Yes. Yeah.

And

Rob Paterson (07:53)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (07:55)
well, yeah, usually, you it happens Friday night. You don't discover it until Sunday morning. We happen to be doing an event that Friday night and got in and was like, this is bad. And so, yeah, we wouldn't have discovered it until Sunday had we not been doing something. So, yeah.

Rob Paterson (07:55)
Oof.

David George (08:00)
Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

My goodness. Right, right.

Rob Paterson (08:13)
Yeah, David, I love what you're up to in terms of just working with partnering with helping churches in this way, because I know, you know, especially for people listening in or even seasons of my life where I was a solo pastor, you know, you have such a passion maybe for people for ministry, for seeing their lives transformed for eternity. But there's all these practical things that you have to account for.

And I know lots of people, know, like, it's, the week of the month where I got to reconcile everything. And I got to do this report because we got a meeting on Tuesday night or whatever. And it literally sucks the life out of people who didn't go to school to become accountants. They went to school, you know, to be pastors and, you know, in ministers. So, you know, just as we think about taking this idea of accounting and dropping it into the world of the church.

David George (08:50)
It does.

See you.

Okay.

Rob Paterson (09:06)
What are some common issues you see in terms of accounting in the church?

David George (09:06)
Yep.

Yeah, yeah. Again, you hit on it. And even like when when I've been on church staff or in any aspects of that, sometimes I think it's that like switching just mentally back and forth. You know, you're I'm sure you're in sermon prep mode and like that's where you want to be. Or, you know, you have all your meetings going and it really is like, OK, now I got to flip the accounting switch or the bookkeeping switch, whatever that is.

And half the time, know, if you're doing it like for one afternoon a month, if you're like me, you're like, okay, not only do I have to go and do this now, I can remember how to do it. Right. And where, right. And where to get around it. And I find that, mean, even even for me, an example, like I've done for businesses bookkeeping, I won't do it anymore because even just me switching back and forth, like it's all in QuickBooks.

Jason Allison (09:52)
Yes, yes. ⁓

David George (10:09)
but just mentally switching back and forth. So I can't imagine when, well, I can't because I've done it before. When you're in ministry mode, like just having to flip that switch. And that is my goal. Like I've always known that I wanted to support in ministry. That's what I feel God's called me to do. You know, as you went through my bio that I was a missionary for five years and that's actually,

Well, my undergrad is in cross-cultural missions. But even as I was setting off to do that, I worked with an organization that did tribal missions, literally trying to go to the ends of the earth, into the deepest parts of the jungle. And I knew I wasn't a church planner. That's not what I ever felt God calling me to do. But I always felt that God was calling me to support those.

that were and I think that's the beautiful thing of the body is that, you know, God's giving me this, this passion and ability to be able to dig in and do this. And I know for pastors, church planners, youth pastors, children's pastors, whatever it is, like God's giving you a calling and a specific role within the body. And we can all come together and make this happen so that hopefully you don't have to flip that switch back and forth and really

dig into the things that you hate. And my goal is to make those things as easy as possible. So even when it comes to that point of, hey, gotta get your receipts in, you know, and it's always the pastor. I think that I'm always going after, right? I try to provide tools to make that as easy as possible and even, you know, that you're uploading those throughout the month. So it's not even like a barrage, right? At the end of the month that you gotta get this in.

Jason Allison (11:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

So like, is that kind of maybe that's one of those like central issues that you see is things like receipts, being able to to clarify the expense. I mean, is that is that pretty common among churches that they they, you know, one of the pastors or one of the staff members writes? Yeah, Rob, cover your face here goes and buy stuff and then doesn't tell the person who's doing the books like what?

Rob Paterson (11:55)
Yeah, that's good.

David George (12:06)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (12:20)
Is that common? What are some other ones?

David George (12:24)
100%. I mean, that's that is, I would say one of the the top issue, because you don't you don't want to, you know, when when you're doing this stuff, and then you got to keep track of those receipts and remember, so I mean, when I'm doing it, I've got a live feed of the church's bank account and QuickBooks or credit cards, whatever it is. And I'll let you go throughout the whole month. But then that first week of the next month.

I make a list and say, all right, here's what I need that you didn't get me throughout the month. Now you've got to go track it down and you've got to remember what was that for. yeah, that is, when I bring on a new church, I tell them, like, this is the process. I don't think I've got one church that is 100 % every month. There's always one or two at least transactions, some of them up to 30, 40 transactions.

Chasing down, right? And as you grow, that's just not one of those things that you want to have to keep doing and keep tracking down.

Jason Allison (13:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:28)
Well, and again, just to stay on the same issue for a second, you know, for I, I'll just speak for me. So, um, yeah, like we have a bookkeeper, uh, who's a volunteer and, but she's great at it. And she's always like calling me and hounding me. Cause I need these receipts and a lot of times they're not even my receipts. So, but, but, but it's, it is challenging because, you know, sometimes you're just like going from this meeting to this meeting, you know, and so those end up in your, in your wallet.

David George (13:57)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (13:57)
Or there's other places now that won't even if you ask they're like we don't we're totally paperless So we'll just email it to you so I got some in my email and some of my wallet and some that like were in a cup holder in the car but then got cleaned out and thrown away and it's like, know, it really isn't just as simple as and so Yeah, even like taking the picture and sending it. Well now I have but that one's in my email and so I got her, you know, it you know

David George (14:01)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So.

Rob Paterson (14:24)
I wanna give a little bit of credit, you know, maybe to anyone listening who's like, I'm terrible at getting everything and well, it's not quite as easy as bookkeepers make it sound like it should be.

David George (14:32)
It's not.

I don't know, Rob. I don't know. No, no, I totally, I totally get it. And that's what I try to encourage. And I have been noticing that more like, you know, I always tell a pastor, like I provide an app, right? That they can just go ahead, take a picture. And I said, you get coffee with someone, you pay for it. And it's like, just get your phone out, snap the picture, upload it to the app. Just real quick coffee.

And I'm noticing that more and more that now it's like, it's a text receipt and it's an email receipt and that is a pain. And it isn't as easy. I try to be grace-filled when we're going after them. Cause I understand, again, understand that this isn't your passion. Your passion is the relationship that the receipt represents over coffee, right? That's where it comes into.

Rob Paterson (15:25)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jason Allison (15:25)
Yeah Yeah one

of the best ways, uh at least with converge and our staff because we use I think Expensify is what it's called And you you were supposed to go well the best thing that we ever did is we make our bookkeeper Come to our off-site staff retreats about twice a year So she has to travel and that means she has to track her receipts And then when she gets back and says your expensive five reports are due

David George (15:43)
it.

Thank

Jason Allison (15:53)
She also has to file her own Expensify reports and she's gone through the pain and she understands and so she's way nice and actually she's amazing and I don't want to ever talk bad about Liz but that that having her involved in that is actually helpful because yeah, you're right It's sometimes a hassle and I mean I know when I'm traveling if I get gas in the rental car Half the time and I'm not kidding half the time. It doesn't print a receipt out. It just won't it's like broken and

David George (16:01)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (16:03)
Yeah, she's great.

David George (16:20)
Yes. Yes.

Jason Allison (16:21)
I go inside and they're like, no, we don't have that. like, I literally take a picture of the gas pumping station and with the price and you know, and like, okay, I hope this is good enough because I don't know what else to do. But that's, that's not, I didn't go to seminary to figure out how to turn in receipts. You know, I,

David George (16:31)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (16:38)
Yeah.

David George (16:39)
I think I get at least one gas pump photo a month. Like that's so common. Like here's the pump and it gets the job done. I'll tell you a story. Here's a funny one that's related to this. I had one church, this was the pastor's wife and she was very involved in ministry, doing a lot of different things. So she would go through end of the month and upload all of her pictures that she had.

I don't think she was paying attention to like what she was clicking in her phone and just uploading pictures. And one of them was literally a picture of their child working at Chick-fil-A. Had nothing to do with the expense. I'm just going through them like, I guess he works at Chick-fil-A. Here's a nice family photo. You just uploaded on like whatever. I enjoyed it. It was a good laugh. So if you can make me laugh too, that's even better. I'll have more grace.

Rob Paterson (17:21)
Yeah.

That's good. David.

So next question, let me set it up this way. So I remember the second church I planted the, the area where I planted it, they required all of their church plants to use Shelby systems for bookkeeping and management, which was just like, and so thankfully we had a guy who was on staff at a larger church in the area and he w he was actually a volunteer staff guy. He had

David George (17:40)
Mmm. Mmm.

Jason Allison (17:40)
⁓

Rob Paterson (17:53)
You know, built a huge company, sold it for gazillions of dollars. And so he just loved Jesus and loved the church. So he not only served as kind of the bookkeeper in his church, but he also helped church plants. And so we were a church plant and he's like, Hey, I'll do all your books for you. Just send me your stuff. And then I still remember, which was good. Cause like, I remember opening Shelby once and I was just scared. Like it was like, I'm like, I don't even know what's going on here. but I still remember one time, you know, when I sent in all my monthly stuff, he said to me,

You you spend you spend a couple hundred bucks a month on just like, you know, staff meals. He goes, our church is way bigger than yours and we never do that. And I said, here's the deal. You have you have a number of staff people, all of which make over $70,000 a year. I pay one of my staff guys like 20 grand and one of my staff guys, $12,000. And I buy them lunch every Tuesday. What do you think is the better deal? He goes, I want to keep seeing two to $300 and in lunches. He goes, you're right. That is a better thing.

David George (18:39)
Yeah.

Yes.

Rob Paterson (18:49)
So no, but I just tell that story to say like, know, when a church reaches out, cause you know, they don't know bookkeeping, you know, is there a software you would recommend? Cause there's some great things out there, but there's like some things that are so complicated that without like a whole, you know, class, you would never even really know how to use it.

David George (18:57)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I haven't had anybody come. I'm familiar with Shelby. I have not had anybody come to me using Shelby yet. But app loss is a really common one because it does fund accounting well. And I mean, that's that's a big part of nonprofits and churches is having funds. But what I always recommend is QuickBooks online. Really common, right?

And I'll tell you, here's the reason. QuickBooks isn't great at fund accounting. So, you you're raising that building fund or the youth missions trip or whatever it is. It's not the simplest for doing fund accounting. It can be done. We do it. We've got our systems to do it. But here's the kicker is most of them like, let's use AppLoss as an example, is usually about $200 a month for that.

that software just for the accounting software. QuickBooks Online, if you just go, you know, regular for-profit business, get QuickBooks Online, it's gonna be about $100 a month for QuickBooks Online. You can go through TechSoup.org and if you're not familiar with TechSoup, it's just a clearing house of different softwares and even hardware for nonprofits. So if you have your 501c3 set up,

You can go register with with techsoup.org and you can actually get QuickBooks online plus for $80 annually. So, you know, we're talking at plus $200 a month. QuickBooks just regular $100 a month at soup.org $80 annually. And that's just ridiculous. And if you're a larger church, you need QuickBooks online advance. I believe the last time I saw that's a

$170 annually. So once a year, it's crazy. And I have maybe two or three churches that need advanced. Most of the time you're just fine with a slice. But yeah, that's been one of the things right off the bat. If I start talking to a pastor, what system are you using? QuickBooks? Oh, where'd you get it from? And a lot of times they already know. But sometimes if you don't, this is a big savings.

Jason Allison (21:23)
Yeah. ⁓

David George (21:26)
Big savings.

Jason Allison (21:26)
Yeah,

well, and I know, you know, the church that I've been at, we use QuickBooks and I was the guy doing all the inputting the numbers and, know, and I mean, it's not always the most intuitive if you're not an accountant. But once you get used to it, you know, it is it's pretty simple to use. We use Shelby Systems just 20 some years ago, and I I don't even know how to log in.

David George (21:35)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

this.

Rob Paterson (21:50)
You still

have nightmares?

Jason Allison (21:51)
I do. still get, I break out into sweat. It's really, it's really bad. But so yeah, I mean, I, yeah, we're going to get, we're going to get mail over this, aren't we? Shelby Systems is going to reach out.

Rob Paterson (21:56)
We, yeah, Jason, had an,

we had, we had an internal person take it over after a number of years. and, and she was trained, you know, by our guy and it was awesome. And she made one mistake and like blew up a bunch of accounts and she had to go with like, you know, file folders where the stuff and spend a whole day with him to try to sort it out. And it's like, to me, that's.

I don't care if that's like your passion. You don't want to be spending anyone's time or energy having to do that. And if something's that non user friendly.

David George (22:24)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (22:30)
But I will tell you, I

David George (22:30)
No.

Jason Allison (22:33)
will tell you though, if Shelby Systems wants to sponsor the Church Talk podcast, we will speak glowingly about it. I mean, for a price. ⁓ I can be bought.

Rob Paterson (22:38)
We will speak glowingly about it.

David George (22:40)
That's right. That's right. You can be bought. You can be bought.

Rob Paterson (22:47)
And if they have, I suspect just like everything else, because I still remember we used, we used a church management software when I first got here. I've drawn a blank on the name. It's one of the big ones. It's church community builder. And they gave us, we knew the people, they gave us great pricing, but anytime we needed people to like use it, like we'd have to retrain them. And if they didn't use it every week, you know, it was, it was not good.

David George (22:54)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Thanks.

Rob Paterson (23:12)
And I kept telling them, we need an app. We need an app that's user friendly that our people can have on their device and use. And they've finally done that, but it's just, they took so long to do it. We had moved on by that time, you know.

Jason Allison (23:25)
Yeah,

well and that's using QuickBooks for me. I would use it about once a month. And so that's why it was hard to remember, which is why having a bookkeeping service is so wonderful because you that's all you do. And so, you know, you can keep that stuff up. Is there other software? I'm just curious. Other software that you would recommend to churches? Maybe it's not their bookkeeping, but maybe it's bookkeeping adjacent. I don't know what the term is.

David George (23:32)
It is. Yep.

That's all we do.

Yeah, well,

you brought it up here is the donor management software. I've worked in a couple of them planning center. It's not even close. Like it is so much better than maybe for your future sponsorship deals. I won't name the other ones. But

Jason Allison (24:01)
Yeah. Yep.

David George (24:11)
One of the things we kind of do as an add-on service, if a church wants us to, is we do donor management and we'll put in your weekly screens or any income right into the management software. So I've worked in a couple, and I'm even to the point where it's like, I don't really want to offer this service unless you're using Planning Center because it is so easy.

I don't get any kickback for this. And I've told different pastors that we're using another one. Like you really, you really need to go to planning center. has great checks and balances to what you're entering. It's easy. It's stupid easy. And finally, this person listened to me after like two years and they're like, yeah, we should have done this three years ago. You know, like it is that that much easier and is reasonable. It's not outlandishly expensive either.

Jason Allison (24:58)
Right. Yeah. So I

we use that the church I was at and I was the one managing all of that. Right. And ⁓ planning center online when we switch because I was using QuickBooks for donor management. And that is. Yeah. No it was it was awful. It was terrible. And so when we switched it over it literally shaved. I think it shaved seven hours of work off just year end.

David George (25:05)
Yeah, yeah.

⁓ don't do that. Don't do that. Yeah.

Believe it.

Jason Allison (25:23)
You know, the year end when you got to send all the results of the, you statements out, it shaved at least seven hours of work off just for that one project that didn't even count. And now any more. I don't know if the churches you work with are like this, but, know, the weekly offering that comes in, like the checks that are in the offering box or that come in the mail. mean, it is the number of checks is probably 20 percent, maybe 30 percent.

David George (25:26)
Yes.

Yes. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (25:51)
of the number of entries right now. The checks that come in are usually bigger than the online regular giving people. I mean, just in the church I was at, that was the way it was. But still, like I'm inputting into planning center, you know, this week's deposit, which was only like eight checks, you know, because all of the online stuff, it all happens automatically. I don't have to do a thing. And into the year, I just say, hey, send a statement out and here's the letter and bloop, I'm done. Like it was that simple.

David George (25:52)
Maybe right.

Yep. Yep.

Right, right. Yup.

Rob Paterson (26:11)
Mm.

David George (26:18)
And the

yeah, the main thing to what you're saying is like, so I'll send the end of year statements to our churches that have that service. And I'm even honest with them. Like if you have someone halfway technological, you don't have to pay me to do this. It's really, I mean, I'm happy to be paid to do it, but it's really that easy. And I said, like, when you get to your end statements, it will take five to 10 minutes.

Jason Allison (26:47)
Yeah.

David George (26:48)
to if everyone has their email then they're email them off. Yep. And then even at that, it's going to export the PDF of all the others and it separates them too. So it's clean and yeah, five to 10 minutes to what you're saying. I do have one. It's a friend of mine that's not big enough to be using planning center. And I use QuickBooks to track. They've only got like 10 to 15 donors, but even those 10 to 15 takes me hours in January.

Jason Allison (26:57)
Yep. I know.

yes,

yes. And I don't care if he's a friend or not, you've got to charge him double for that.

David George (27:17)
to do that in QuickBooks. It's dumb.

Rob Paterson (27:23)
Yeah. Amen. Amen. You know, just since we're talking about this software thing, I will say, cause we

David George (27:23)
I probably should. I probably should. I'm too nice. Yeah. ⁓

Rob Paterson (27:30)
use planning center for years and loved it. and I got back from some, David from some surgery stuff last summer and my staff kind of cornered me and said, we want to switch. we still use planning center for all of our service stuff. but they had found something where, you know, our website and our app were all

different and know, non real planning center kinds of things. And so they found a software called sub splash that integrated the website and and so we've been using sub splash so and they haven't complained and they're the ones that use it so

David George (27:56)
Mm-hmm.

Okay,

I'll be honest. So I do have a church or two that uses Subsplash. I have never entered like physical deposits. So checking cash into Subsplash. It's only ever been, and actually one of my main churches that uses Subsplash, they used to use Subsplash, moved to planning center, but because all that recurring giving was still going in Subsplash.

Subsplash is connected to Planning Center and it's still automatic and it just automatically hosts the batch to Planning Center. So we're still doing everything. So they're actually running both systems because if you've done system switches, you know, you got those recurring donors. Yeah, right. they...

Jason Allison (28:34)
That's good.

yeah. Yep.

Rob Paterson (28:40)
We get it. Yes. And if they haven't switched

over, you're not turning the old thing off if money's coming in. Yes.

David George (28:46)
Exactly. So they were like,

not worth it. We'll just have both systems. And it has worked out pretty fluidly. But yeah, I've never entered into SunFlash.

Jason Allison (28:53)
That's good. Well, so. What

when you think about that, I'm just curious when you start working with the church, mean, they call you and they're like, hey, we're we're you know, this isn't a church plant that's brand new, that has their clueless and stupid like this is a church that has been around and they're saying, hey, we recognize we just need some help with this. We can't afford to hire a staff member, you know, but it's a little bit bigger than a volunteer could do. Like what is.

David George (29:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (29:21)
What is the first thing that you look at when you start that process?

David George (29:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. One of the first things. Well, OK, first thing you get in your subscription through TechSoup. That is literally the first thing. Second thing is I want to see your chart of accounts and what has your chart of accounts built out to over the years. I love volunteers. Volunteers are amazing. Right. Church doesn't happen without them.

I've had a few churches where they have had the bookkeeper and they are professional accountants. Love them. And they have built out the chart of account so large and complicated. I literally had pastors come to us and say, our longtime bookkeeper accountant is retiring. He's no longer doing this. He's been doing a volunteer base for years. He's no longer doing it. So we have to do something.

They said, we don't understand the reports he gives us. Please, simplify. So I love going to work on a target of accounts. So that will be one of the first things. like, again, I want to make it user friendly to the pastor, to the board, to the staff that needs to see where are they at with the budget. My goal is to make that user friendly.

And the great thing this this church that I did this for now, I kind of have a liaison volunteer there. That's the lead treasurer. And he's like more strict about it than me. Like is someone I said, like, can we get this guy? He's like, no. And I'm like, well, that one kind of makes sense. He's like, no, we're not adding any more accounts. Like, but that's one of the first things because they just like, is that really user friendly to to the staff pastors board to have?

You know, 200 accounts on your reports. It doesn't make any

Rob Paterson (31:13)
So maybe for...

Jason Allison (31:16)
Well, can I

me be a witness here for a second. We we merged. So I had a church plant merged with another church plant, you know, eight, 15 years, 12, 13 years in. I can't remember whatever merged with another church plant to become a new church. And that church before we launched merged with another church, an existing church. OK, so can you imagine?

Chart of accounts when I go to input this into QuickBooks So we had to kind of pick a date that you know a year and say okay everything stops and we're gonna rebuild a new one and just start fresh and try to I mean we tried to match as best we could because you know, we it's just for tracking this was a utility. I got a plan for utilities So I got to know and we have and we had two campuses when we launched so like I mean talk about complicated

David George (31:43)
Yeah

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.

yeah.

Jason Allison (32:08)
But yeah, that's huge. mean, at one point, our chart of accounts for a small church, like this was not a big church. I mean, think we had, gosh, we had at least three pages of, you know, of accounts, right? That it's just, and it's like, my gosh. But yeah, I think that's a great place to start when, because it helps them focus. It helps them realize, okay, what is important? What do we need to track and why? And then it.

David George (32:20)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:33)
forces them, I think, if they've got a good coach or a good board saying, OK, what is our mission and why is that important? Like, why is having one fund that is just for the women's knitting group, right? Why do we need to have that separated out? What does that have to do with the mission of our church? And so it kind of forces those conversations. I think that's a that's a good starting point. What else? Where else do you go? Or maybe Rob, you've got another follow up. I don't know.

David George (32:40)
Mm-hmm.

right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (33:00)
What else do you do? What's the second thing you start to...

David George (33:03)
So then the next thing would be budget. Do you got a budget? Because I've had conversations with churches that have been going for a long time and doing great financially, right? But without that rudder of really knowing where are we going here of the budget, what do you got in there?

So if we get the chart of accounts cleaned up, now let's build our budget out on that. And I'm happy to assist in looking at that and getting that done because again, I think it goes back to doing ministry and how can we do ministry well if we don't know what we got or where we're going with that.

Rob Paterson (33:39)
Nice. All right, so David, I have two questions. One of them is like a real time one, right? So you're talking about like QuickBooks stuff. I actually texted my XP and I said, hey, how much do we pay every month for QuickBooks? Cause I'm like, I want to know. Cause if we're paying the full price. So, and here's what he told me. I want your input on this. He said, we're paying $272 a month.

David George (33:42)
Yes.

Yes.

Rob Paterson (34:05)
but that includes premium payroll and federal state local tax payments included with payroll. So.

David George (34:14)
How many employees are we talking here?

Rob Paterson (34:16)
including like preschools and things like that. don't know, like let's say, let's say tennis.

David George (34:17)
Yeah, that's running through payroll.

That sounds really steep. Yeah, and so I'll be clear on this. We used to do payroll. We don't do payroll anymore for a couple reasons. One of them is the majority of our headaches were payroll related. And then we weren't using QuickBooks payroll. were using Patriot at the time.

which Patriots super user friendly, easy, no problem there. They kept raising their rates. So then we had to go back to the churches and raise our rates. And it just got to this point where it's like, there's no margin there for us. And all of our headaches are coming from this one thing. Not gonna do payroll anymore. And I would say a third of our churches at the time were using Ministry Works for payroll. So Ministry Works is a division of Brotherhood Mutual.

So a lot of churches are getting their insurance and stuff through there. Ministry Works does ministry payroll. So they understand housing allowance and all the pieces that go into ministry payroll. And they could do it for way less than we could. And that sounds really expensive. You said 270-ish for both your QuickBooks and your QuickBooks payroll. I would run a quote with Ministry Works.

That sounds even if you're you're paying $100 for your QuickBooks, which we can get that knocked down going to TechSoup that leaves 170 ish for your payroll. That that sounds pretty high. If I had to take a stab, don't don't quote me on this. Maybe I shouldn't say because we're recording, but I would take a stab. The Ministry of Works will be around 50 bucks a month.

Jason Allison (35:55)
recording.

Rob Paterson (35:59)
Okay.

David George (36:00)
would be would be my guess. So I would check them out. I think they're fantastic. Again, I get no kickback for saying this. I have a contact there if you want to reach out to me, but I get nothing from them except it's just when when you have when the church has processes that are good, it again makes my life easy. So I benefit in that way that their payroll registers make sense. They do good work.

Jason Allison (36:01)
Yeah. Bye.

David George (36:27)
very few issues with them. They're great and I think they're reasonably priced, which is great.

Jason Allison (36:32)
I can tell you that

Converge Mid-Atlantic uses Ministry Works. I mean, I just got an email saying, hey, you're going to get paid and here's how. Now, I forgot how to access my stuff, but that's just because I'm an idiot, not because they were bad.

David George (36:36)
Yes, they do. That's true. ⁓

Rob Paterson (36:46)
No, that's that that's good. You know, David, as somebody who just spends like your life in this space, you know, I'm wondering, are there things you see like, you know, when you when you encounter a church that's struggling financially, are there some issues that are typical that like that contribute to that that maybe this whole area could help address or improve?

David George (36:46)
That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah, tighten

up. Yeah. You know, a lot of it, I actually see a lot of subscriptions is one of those things that be, I find that in my personal life, right? We are living in a subscription world and these subscriptions just get going. And here's, okay, the latest is ChatGPT, right? It's only 20 bucks a month, but what I am seeing is Lead Pastor has a subscription on his church credit card.

Rob Paterson (37:19)
that.

David George (37:36)
Youth pastor has this subscription on his church credit card. mean, I, I see churches with three or four of the same subscription, right? that, that we're just not communicating. And, and yeah, I just took one church. it was actually their idea. They decided, Hey, let's, let's make an IT section of, the, in the chart of accounts. And we're going to pull all this stuff together so that we can actually see.

where are all these subscriptions going out and do we all need these subscriptions or can we collaborate? Can we up our Spotify subscription instead of everybody having their own and save? Obviously that's not gonna make huge, it's not gonna move the meter in huge ways, but those are just areas where you're seeing things leak out right now.

Jason Allison (38:24)
It's

so funny. You gave a bookkeeper's answer to that question. See where you're bleeding. We've asked the same question of other people who are in different areas of church and their answer. I'm thinking Brian Dodd, when he's a friend of ours, we've had him on the show multiple times. ⁓ We ask him these kind of questions. He goes to financial systems and building

Rob Paterson (38:29)
Hahaha

David George (38:43)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (38:48)
Mm.

Jason Allison (38:49)
generosity within, you that's the way he attacks it. ⁓ And then if you talk to, you know, some of the other people that we've talked to, it's a spiritual issue, right? Or it's an education issue or, and here's the thing, I think they're all correct. Like it's, I don't think it's one issue, but it's interesting to me to see, you know, hearing your response, which I think is accurate. mean, good night. It's spot on.

Rob Paterson (38:53)
Hmm.

David George (38:58)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (39:15)
But that's the way a bookkeeper is going to see this. And so when I ask you a question like that, I'm hoping for you to say, here's where you're leaking. Here's where you're bleeding money that's just stupid bleeding. It's not moving the needle. And so having a partner like that who can objectively look at things, I mean, feel like that's not only is it saving you money, it's an investment in the mission of the church. So I appreciate that.

David George (39:24)
Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (39:42)
So we're about out of time, but I just real quick want to ask you I get this question a lot so I feel like I need to ask you people ask about designated giving Right where where they have you know, and you mentioned a building fund or so. Okay I'm all for that. You have it, you know, if you're doing a building campaign, you've got a designated fund for that. That's great What are your thoughts on that beyond a capital type campaign?

David George (39:51)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (40:07)
because I know other churches, they've got the women's knitting fund, they've got the youth camp fund, they've got the fill in the blank and they've got 52 of these funds, but they can't afford to pay the electric bill, but these funds, I'm just curious in your experience from a bookkeeper's perspective, what are your thoughts on that?

David George (40:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

It's such a fascinating thing. And I just saw an article the other day that was kind of talking about this and it was relating it to Gen Z, right? And the Gen Z isn't as interested in giving just the general budget, but they want to see

Rob Paterson (40:50)
Mm.

David George (40:53)
specifically, what are we giving to? And I don't know if this is a Gen Z thing or if it really is everyone. Here's a fascinating scenario I'll throw out there is that I had a church that was getting concerningly behind on budget. They had an offset fiscal year, but like it was getting to the point where you stop starting to stop spending.

it was getting concerning and they were raising funds for a missions trip and they had a record number of people sign on for this missions trip, therefore needed to raise a substantial amount of money. When she believed it, they raised it. So the general budget is getting further and further behind and this missions trip is getting raised. And I think that's a fascinating trend.

in giving in general that people want to know where their giving is going to and they get excited. Are you going to get excited about painting a room in the kids wing? Or are you going to get excited about a mission strip? whatever, replacing the AC, whatever it is. Yeah.

operating budgets and it's hard to see that vision and I think that's one of the things that's really hard on pastors because we don't you don't like to talk about money. I don't I don't think I've ever met a pastor that does maybe if he does it might be a concern. I don't know right, but you be able to cast that vision because it is again. It's going back to ministry and how can ministry happen?

So so to be able to project that vision for the general budget does. So to go back to your question, what about funds? That's the question. The one fund is really interesting. I know a church that's currently doing that in a building fund. They're working on a large building fund and they're just doing one fund. It's all right by that. The general fund. So they're presenting. We want to build this building.

It's going to cost this much, but we aren't going to set it to the side so that our general fund doesn't take a hit in building out that vision. And I think right now that's a pretty good idea. I'll give you the bookkeeper's answer now. If you're going to do funds, communicate well to your bookkeeper of what's going on with those funds. I'm glad to track it for you.

glad to track it, especially if you're using Planning Center. It's pretty easy to track and I can do that. It's easy to track income, but you gotta communicate the expenses and ⁓ when we're moving those around because I'll have that, where you got this youth fund and then I like picking on the youth pastors. I love them. have teenagers and I really appreciate youth pastors. I think they're amazing. But when it comes to receipts, I'm gonna pick on them.

Jason Allison (43:27)
It is. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (43:33)
Mmm.

David George (43:50)
You know, if they're just writing youth, this is for youth, this is for youth, youth supplies, but it was maybe for the missions trip. Like you got to communicate that so that I know, ⁓ where, where is it coming from? So, so two sides to that, right? Right. Philosophy. And I think where we're going trending right now. and then also just practically just communicate.

Jason Allison (44:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah

Well, david, I really appreciate your time. This was great. Very practical a lot of fun, and My my thought on the designated funds too is the moment gen z or or millennials start saying I only want to give to something that I can see, know what happening i'm turning the air conditioning off And say i'm sorry, but you didn't give to the electric fund and so you're just gonna have to sit and sweat So that's my response. But then again, i'm

David George (44:17)
Yeah.

was.

Haha!

Jason Allison (44:40)
you know, a crusty old guy who, you know, probably get in trouble. But David, thank you. Your organization is ministry bookkeepingpartners.com. I'll list that in the show notes as well. We encourage, mean, Convergement Atlantic recommends you, like partners with you. So, you know, I know the work that you do is great and solid. And if anyone wants to reach out to you and for some reason can't find the show notes or whatever, they can reach out to us. We will connect you quickly and easily.

David George (44:49)
Yes.

I love them.

Jason Allison (45:09)
Thank you for coming alongside pastors and allowing us to do what God called us to do. And then that means you're doing what God called you to do. That means a lot to us. So thanks a lot, Yeah. Well, yeah, you're great. Well, hey, to everybody else, we ask you take a minute. And if this was helpful, share the episode with some friends, with some other ministry people who could get something out of this. Subscribe to the podcast. It helps us know and helps us to communicate better.

Rob Paterson (45:15)
That's right.

David George (45:19)
It's a privilege. It's a privilege. I appreciate you guys. Thank you for the time. It was fun.

Jason Allison (45:37)
We hope you have a great week. We're cheering for you. We'll see you soon.