Vital Church with Dave Miles

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson welcome David Miles, a seasoned transitional pastor. They discuss the challenges and opportunities that arise during church transitions, emphasizing the importance of intentionality and vulnerability in leadership. David shares insights from his extensive experience in ministry, highlighting the need for churches to prepare for transitions and the role of boards in addressing underlying issues. The conversation also touches on the significance of admitting personal shortcomings and the transformative power of grace in the church community.

Vital Church Ministries

Chapters

00:00 Weather and Personal Updates
04:31 Introducing David Miles
06:26 David's Journey in Ministry
09:27 The Role of Transitional Pastors
11:39 The Importance of Intentional Transition
15:18 Challenges During Church Transitions
19:42 Seeing Opportunity in Transition
22:00 Facing the Problem: Humility in Leadership
25:06 The Role of Admitting Faults in Discipleship
27:03 The Power of Grace in Leadership
29:33 Navigating Transitions: Recognizing When to Move On
31:37 Self-Awareness in Leadership Transitions
36:30 Preparing for New Leadership: Interim Insights

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:00)
Hey everybody, welcome to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason. Man, we are so glad that you are here. I know we're recording this today and I just ran in my car to get something and it was 108 degrees according to my car. that's just, just makes me wonder if we aren't on the doorstep of hell, but maybe we are. Maybe we're not. I don't know. Rob, Rob, is it that hot up by you?

Rob Paterson (00:22)
It is that hot up by me. You know, it's crazy here in the great state of Ohio where we both live, where it seemed like this year winter kind of, I mean, it wasn't awful or cold, but it just lasted a lot longer than typical. It's kind of seemed like that. And then we went right from winter to the rainy season and it was like, you know, torrential downpour every day. It seemed like for a year and a half.

And now it just like, of course, you know, other than rain, virtually no spring. And now it's like upper nineties, you know, for the last two, three, four days. And it is ridiculous. I agree.

Jason Allison (01:00)
Yeah, yeah, I don't know what we're going to do about it, but maybe we're not going to do anything. All I know is is hampering my desire to play golf in the afternoon. And so that that makes a big difference. But Rob, you know, it's this will drop, you know, first of July and you'll be taking a few weeks off. Any any big plans for your regular July? It's not a sabbatical. It's just a rest time, recuperation time.

Rob Paterson (01:05)
you

David Miles (01:09)
Yeah

Rob Paterson (01:26)
Yeah, I kind

of, I kind of stack vacation and sort of use it in July for the most part. and yeah, just to spend more time with my family, I have a number of house projects that have been started, but have been sort of lingering. So my wife's going to be super happy that not that she is pushy at all. She really isn't. mean, you know her, she's, she's super accommodating and those ways I'm more, you know, I frustrate myself.

but there's a few things I've got to get done in July at the house. And then as you know, you know, when you're connected to people and in ministry, I just keep getting invited to, Hey, do you want to help with this or do you want to participate in that? And, and you know, lot of those things intrigue me. So I'm like, Ooh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So by July, that even though it's open in some ways is full in other ways. but

But one answer to that question, Jason, is, you know, my youngest son who is 11 and a half. Um, I did this with my older son to family life ministries puts out this really cool little product and we should reach out and see if they want to be a sponsor of the podcast since I'm going to plug this. Uh, but it's called passport to purity and it's just like a little, you know, father, son, uh, mother, daughter, you know, kind of little retreat thing that has a number of sessions.

Jason Allison (02:34)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (02:46)
And it was very helpful. I took, again, my older son, Christopher through it when he was about this age that my younger son is, and it just sort of like frames some conversations, just about sexual purity. And you know, Liam would Bethany and I both are noticing things where he's just starting to kind of notice things and behave in ways where those kinds of things are starting to like awaken in him. So helping talk about those things in a,

very pragmatic and godly way are, you know, where I'm excited. So I'm gonna take at least two or three days. We'll go on a little trip and kind of have those conversations and walk through those sessions together. And I'm really looking forward to that time with him.

Jason Allison (03:29)
that's cool. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I'll talk to Liam later in the summer and see how it actually went.

David Miles (03:37)
You

Jason Allison (03:39)
Yes. Hey, you know, Rob, we, have a guest today that, I got, I was introduced by one of our previous guests, mass, Matt Steen from chemistry staffing, actually was on a call with him and, some other people. And, the guy that we have on today was sharing some stuff that he has noticed over the last year as he worked with churches. And then Matt texted me and said, Hey, you need to meet this guy and like, get to know him. Cause he's awesome. And after.

having lunch or dinner with him or snack. don't know. We went out somewhere and hung out. I was like, yep, this is a guy I need to know. He's amazing. and I just love every time I've had a conversation with him, I've just enjoyed every minute of it. And so I said, we got to get you on the podcast and, have some conversations with you. So I want to welcome to the podcast, a new friend of mine, who I hope to talk to more often and maybe even see, in

live in person soon. Dave Miles. Dave, welcome to the podcast, Yeah.

David Miles (04:34)
to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. It's good.

And it's just as hot here on the North Shore of Long Island as it is in Ohio. We went from maybe two weeks ago below 50 degrees in the morning and then from that, you know, to close to a hundred. So it's kind of, uh, yeah, it's puzzling. I don't understand, but that's the way it goes. So.

Jason Allison (04:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's

right. That's right. Well, Dave, you know, you are connected to and you actually, you know, a founder of Vital Church Ministry. And just from our conversations, I know that you you love the church. You enjoy the challenges of working with churches, especially, you know, churches that are in transition, which is one of the things I really want to talk about today. And really, you've you've been doing this since what about 94?

you've been involved in some way, or form. and so I just, appreciate your, your heart for churches, the, the passion that you bring to it. and you've been in some kind of pastoral role, you know, usually some kind of interim role in, you know, California, New York, Hawaii, Washington, Connecticut. I mean, you've been all over this country. so you've seen it kind of like that, a farmer's insurance commercial, right?

You've seen a lot, you know, you've seen a lot of things, so you know, a lot of things. Uh, and so, and, and I'm still, of course, the fact that you play golf is one of the reasons Rob and I decided you, could be on the podcast. Uh, and so that's good. But I mean, and you surf like you did all this stuff and I don't, I can't keep up.

David Miles (05:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:57)
Yes.

We have a very

complicated rubric that helps determine who makes it on and you tick a lot of boxes, Dave.

Jason Allison (06:06)
Yes.

Exactly.

David Miles (06:10)
Golf, surf, running.

Rob Paterson (06:12)
Yeah, the running hurt you. Yeah.

Jason Allison (06:13)
leave that one off.

so maybe Dave, let's just let our listeners get to know you a little bit. Maybe just tell, tell a little bit of your story and how you even got to the point where you are doing what you do.

David Miles (06:26)
Yeah, so I grew up in the great state of Michigan and I know, I know Ohio, Michigan thing is ⁓ still, it's very real. Yeah, it's more real than people are willing to acknowledge, but it's very real. And so I grew up in a Christian family, actually gave my life to Christ when I was in high school, I would say. Fundamentalist background, didn't understand that there were other people from different.

Jason Allison (06:29)
I'm sorry.

Ha

Rob Paterson (06:33)
It's real.

David Miles (06:49)
you know, communities, can hold the same orthodoxy, you know, and not be a fundamentalist, but that's kind of the history that I come out of. lot of essentially was discipled by being in the Bible and the Holy Spirit. there was a small group that started. All we did is read the Bible and talk about it and pray with a of high school students. I've, you know, that discipleship process is something that's...

I mean, I look back at that now and didn't even realize what was going on, which is another story in itself talking about what discipleship actually is. But out of that college, graduate school, and then in ministry, frustrated. Some of it's my own, frankly, character at the time. And I want to make sure that you guys know that I am a practitioner and your listeners know that I've made every mistake in the book. Hurt people. Didn't mean to hurt people. Didn't try to hurt people.

but just trying to figure out how to facilitate God's change for a local church led to some of that. So we've been a trial by fire kind of a thing. And in 1993, I was out in the West Coast. I was going to Fuller Seminary for my doctoral work and met a guy named George Frazier who was with a ministry called Titus Task Force. Another friend of his, Bob Brady, who has worked with the Charles E. Fuller Institute. And so this idea of diagnosis,

and then intentional interim to affect or facilitate a quick change in a local church is very attractive to me. It was in and out, you're quick and easy, you're done in a couple years. so out of that came this, my doctoral work came this ministry called Vital Church. We were part of this great organization called Church Resource Ministries at the time, it's now called Novo, and they gave me the freedom.

to actually develop this, develop the team. in 2014, about a little more than 10 years ago, we decided to actually spin off on them with their blessing. We left well and started our own ministry, Vial Church Ministries. So I am a career intentional interim pastor. have worked with churches across the United States as a transitional pastor. And so that is my...

That is, I mean, I've worked on a church planting team, working associate pastor in a large church, but my career has been primarily working for churches in transition or crisis, which is a different gig really than church past normal pastoring of a church. It's just a different thing. And we still got to accept that and it's okay. And that's been my call. so, you know, and I'm at a point now where we are in succession planning.

Jason Allison (09:12)
Mm.

It is.

David Miles (09:27)
I'm no longer, I mean, I'm really not a good executive director. So that kind of gave up that in 2017 to somebody who actually knew what they're doing. And, you know, we brought in a business guy and the business guy who was our executive director really turned this thing into a really, it's a national organization now. We've just, we're in succession planning. Jason, I think I told you this, you know, we've got a young guy running the thing now and my job is to help market, train, hire.

Jason Allison (09:33)
Ha

David Miles (09:55)
you know, that's my job now is to see this into the next few years because as you saw the, don't know if you, I think you and I talked about this when we had snacks a few, well, about a month and a half ago now, according to the Barna organization by 2030, 25 % of the churches are going to have had their pastors, you know, retire, 25%.

Rob Paterson (10:17)
Mmm.

David Miles (10:18)
So we need a large group of intentional interim pastors who can work for these churches in transition or crisis. And so that's the kind of the story.

Jason Allison (10:28)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (10:28)
Yeah,

Dave, you know, as you're talking about that, like there's so many things just kind of firing in my mind. You know, one of them being so many churches when there is a transition, whether it, you know, they kind of saw it coming or it was unexpected. You know, they're everybody wants to like, I don't want to have too many Sundays without our, our next pastor. Right. So they want to, they want to do it quickly, not quickly, like you're saying where you're in for a couple of years and then out, but like they want to, know,

If we could figure this out in two months, that'd be great. so yeah. But, but, but, but talk about like the value of actually going through an intentional process that, you know, leads to greater health and greater clarity and actually getting the right person, not just kind of a good person. And then how all of that works and fits in this current climate where we are getting to, and really will be even more so in a place where.

David Miles (10:58)
Exactly. I was exactly saying that Rob, two months. That's what people think. ⁓ boy.

Rob Paterson (11:26)
mean, we're hearing stuff all the time about, you know, there's like way more need than there are availability. And so, you know, like how does all that work together in this, this climate we're in and like, why did churches need to kind of be thinking about this stuff?

David Miles (11:39)
Well, any kind of transition is actually an opportunity for God to do a deep work of discipleship. Discipleship is never a short-term, I mean, in America, we want everything now, like right now. But discipleship is a long-term process. God doesn't shape a soul in two months. God doesn't shape an organization in two months. And so I'm afraid that a lot of our,

desire to have a quick pastoral turnaround is affected by failure to understand that no one is shaped in a short period of time and that today in particular you can't just put a pastor in maybe 20, 30 years ago, maybe when we were kids, when I was a kid, it was no big deal. know, with Christendom being the predominant worldview in North America, it's not like that anymore.

So you've got to be more specific that you match your church with who you are as a Christian leader. And so that takes time. You know, that's kind of where Matt Steen comes in. He's just been such, you know, with chemistry staffing as they're really trying to figure this thing out. A lot of these organizations are slingshot. You know, they're, I mean, we're trying to put the right people in the right places and it's taken longer now than it used to. That's another thing.

So you got the natural, you know, spiritual formation and shaping and growth and grieving. Like let's say that you've had a person that's been there for years. Well, you got to grieve that transition, And if you don't, what happened, the expectations that are placed on the new pastor, like let's say that it happens in two months. If you haven't planned, I mean, we're talking years of succession planning and then make that transition in two months. If you haven't done that, which most people don't, the next person is typically an unintentional interim.

Jason Allison (13:05)
Mm hmm.

Rob Paterson (13:09)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (13:27)
Mm hmm. We used to call those the sacrificial lambs.

David Miles (13:31)
Yeah, and it happens and it's been happening for years. You know, and so it's not fair to the pastor's family or the pastor themself. And it's devastating to the church. And so we think that this intentional approach of preparing a church to really do a deep look inside, let God shape us and mold us, help us to discern who we are specific to, you know, our unique calling and contribution to the body.

Rob Paterson (13:34)
Yeah.

David Miles (13:56)
of Christ in this local place, wherever that is, it's different every place, okay? Because I've been all over the place. I'm gonna tell you, it's different. Hawaii and New York, very different, right? The culture is different. And so specific to that culture, who has God called us to reach? What's God called us to do? How are we gonna be true to the gospel in the middle of all that? Yeah, and so it's really this whole transitional pastor thing is really something that

right now we need in North America.

Jason Allison (14:27)
Yeah. So, you're as a interim pastor, transitional pastor, you you kind of come in as one person leaves while they get ready for the next one. I mean, in a very simple way, that's that's that's what you do. But I know you don't come in simply to like, you know, keep the ship afloat. Don't rock anything. You know, you're you don't come in. Right. Just to just somebody up there until we can find the real guy. Yeah. You know,

Rob Paterson (14:48)
Warm body with a pulse. Placeholder.

David Miles (14:50)
Right, yeah.

Jason Allison (14:55)
So as in your experience, as you've sat in that liminal state between you, what are some of the things that you've noticed with churches that maybe catches them off guard during transitions? What are some things that you've seen, wow, they did not see that coming. And maybe the next time you're better able to prepare the next church for it. But what are some things you've seen?

David Miles (15:18)
Yeah, so, boy, that is a loaded question because there so many things. What catches people off guard in many cases is they are pastor-focused ministry. So the ministry is built around the pastor. And so when the ministry is built around the pastor and the pastor leaves and the pastor perhaps hasn't taken Ephesians 4.11-12 seriously, you know,

Jason Allison (15:30)
So.

David Miles (15:42)
pastors, apostles, pastors, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, that passage, to equip the saints for their work of service. Most of us weren't trained in seminary to do that. We were trained to do the ministry. And so what we want to equip a church to do is to train them to give ministry away. And so that catches them off guard, like, my gosh, we're totally toast because our pastor's gone. Well, not if the pastor's been doing his job.

Jason Allison (15:52)
Yeah. Yeah.

Right.

David Miles (16:10)
See, and most of us don't because we get a lot of affirmation from standing up on Sundays and talking. And, you know, even if it's a small church and you got a hundred people listening to you every single week, that's kind of a head trip, man. And when it's a big church, you got a thousand people listening to you every Sunday. Whoa. You know, that's, that's a big deal, right? So your propensity isn't to actually equip people. Not a large church, you've got to, you've got, you've got to otherwise not going to get large. See, but you know, that, that,

Jason Allison (16:34)
Yeah.

David Miles (16:39)
That pastor-focused thing, that is a big deal. That's one thing that catches people off guard.

Rob Paterson (16:43)
Mm. Mm.

Jason Allison (16:45)
So

it's almost like the transition becomes that place that reveals some of the weaknesses that were there all along. But it's almost the word apocalyptic, right? It unveils some of these weaknesses. And so that's why they're unexpected because if they knew it was a weakness, they would have dealt with it.

David Miles (17:03)
Right. then it's revelatory. Transition is always revelatory. And here's another thing. I don't want to know. Like if I'm your normal Christian in North America, I don't want to know that stuff. See, I don't want to I don't want all that stuff to be revealed because now I'm pastor focused, but it also reveals something about me, my character, my skill level.

Rob Paterson (17:16)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (17:16)
Hahaha.

David Miles (17:28)
how I really don't care about discipleship or evangelism. I don't give a rip about lost people. I'm in conflict with people. I mean, it's very much revelatory. And so the anxiety goes up in a system, like an emotional system. A church is like a family, okay? So when the pastor leaves, daddy's gone. Well, and anxiety goes out the roof. And so all of a sudden, all these things,

start becoming evident. they, mean, we were, was in a church, some other place in United States, just this weekend, same stuff, pastor leaves, boom, all this stuff really comes out. Well, it's been like this for 20 years, 20 years. We did this diagnostic and they told us that, yeah, it's been going on for 20 years. Yeah. So now people are like, what do we do? Yeah, 20 years. That's a long time.

Jason Allison (18:08)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:13)
Wow.

Jason Allison (18:16)
Hmm.

David Miles (18:22)
to ignore stuff. Now you're in deep, I mean, now you're in the weeds, man. And so your normal interim pastor is not equipped to go in and address that stuff. They're just not, nor should they be. They're not called to be that way. So we take it like a vow to church, we take a team approach, we do a diagnostic because that, you know, that revelation, whatever it is,

Jason Allison (18:26)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-mm.

David Miles (18:48)
I mean, it's difficult. I'll tell you something else that catches people off guard. And then we saw that, Robin and Jason this weekend, there is a false peace, oftentimes in a church that is not dealt with some of their issues. And that false peace makes it feel good.

Jason Allison (19:06)
Mm.

David Miles (19:14)
But the conflict is actually stewing underneath the surface. So when you're in transition, there's always something beneath the surface. I don't even look at it here. See, there's something going on. The issue looks like it's the issue, but the issue is not the issue. It's not a person, it's a system. So you've got to deal with that system to deal with the problem. And see, these are things that most people, unless you're like in marriage counseling and whatnot, you don't think about this stuff.

Jason Allison (19:25)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:42)
Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. Dave, you said something right out of the gate that I thought was a great word. You said every transition is an opportunity. and, it's, which is a unique thing, right? Because I think most churches, most people in churches would feel like opportunity. This feels awful. It feels like, you know, an insurmountable challenge. And, you know, I mean, what would you say to like,

Jason Allison (19:42)
Yeah.

David Miles (19:43)
But it's there. It's there.

Rob Paterson (20:09)
an elder board leaders staff, you know, who are part of a transition, like how can, how can, know, they see this as an opportunity and really navigate a season like that in a way that's not detrimental to the church, but really helps it to thrive.

David Miles (20:24)
Well, I would say that the first thing a board, to answer your question, Rob, the board needs to do is ask, you know, we're part of the problem.

Whatever the opportunity is, there's going to be issues. You're part of the issue.

And so we've seen a big difference between churches that actually take these opportunities and the ones that squander them. The ones that take the opportunities are always saying, wow, you know, we're part of the problem. We're part of the issue here. What can we do? How can, how does God want to meet us, you know, to resolve this problem or to deal with this issue or face this transition?

See, so you go into it with a humble heart. And the, you know, I would say, how do you prepare a church for something like that? Beg the board to face its part of the problem. You know, we asked three questions. Will you face the real, a board every time? And I tell you, I was, again, I was with a board this weekend and I said, do you guys really want us here? And they kind of got put out. Like we're paying all this money to bring you here, right? You know what I

Jason Allison (21:17)
Mm.

David Miles (21:32)
We're spending the money. said, yeah, but I'm not convinced you really want us here.

Rob Paterson (21:36)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (21:36)
Hmm.

David Miles (21:36)
because their behavior doesn't demonstrate that they want us there. So I'm looking, so what I would say to a board is, it's almost like in a conflict, like with your spouse or brother or somebody, okay, you're part of the problem, ask how.

Jason Allison (21:54)
Hmm.

David Miles (21:56)
And most boards, in their minds, they're not part of the problem.

but they are part of the problem and a big part of the problem. And so the way you prepare for this as a board is to say, okay, like we're not sure what the problem is, but we know this, we're part of it.

And when you go into it with that attitude and you take James 4-6 seriously, God gives a greater grace, know, humble yourself under the mighty hand of God that, you know, I mean, there's a greater grace that we experience when there's humility and brokenness. So doggone biblical, right? And yet most boards and husbands and wives and marriages, no, I'm not the problem. She's the problem. sorry, bro. You're the problem.

Yeah, she probably contributes, but you deal with you. can address your problems. So the boards that we, you you got to come in with a humble heart and a lot, that's very difficult. And I can tell you why it's difficult too. Idolatry.

Jason Allison (22:54)
Why?

Rob Paterson (22:55)
Yeah.

David Miles (22:58)
Boards like to be in charge. People like to be the boss. It's idolatry of power. And what's going to happen if we tell this church that, like, we've kind of screwed up in this? What's going to happen to us? So there's all this fear. Something other than Jesus Christ is more important than Jesus Christ. And so you got to, you know, I put out a blog for our team. I just noted to our interim pastors a few weeks ago, look, you got to get sneaky about dealing with, you know,

Jason Allison (23:00)
Yeah.

David Miles (23:26)
because nobody wants to admit that this is their problem, but it is. And so, dealing with the sin beneath the sin, which is more often than not an idol of some kind, you got to sneak around that, you got to deal with it. It's very, you know, I mean, I love it, frankly. I love it because, you know, I've been able to face the fact that I'm like part of the problem of almost every situation I'm in. So if I have the freedom, because the gospel gives me freedom to admit that.

Jason Allison (23:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm.

Rob Paterson (23:52)
Mm.

David Miles (23:54)
Like Keller says, you're more sinful than you ever dare to imagine. So if that's true, and yet God's grace is greater than I could possibly think, then I'm totally free to face my stuff and to help somebody else face theirs.

Jason Allison (24:09)
Yeah, feel like a lot of boards don't, a lot of leaders in churches, they don't feel that freedom. Like they really feel like if they acknowledge they were part of the problem, then they're going to be ousted. They're going to be, they're going to lose credibility. They're going to lose authority. They're going to, you know, and so being creative as an interim pastor, helping, you know, uncover these things. When you were telling, saying that I was thinking of, you know, Nathan confronting David.

David Miles (24:36)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (24:36)
Right?

You know, he's very creative and almost subversive in the way he got David to admit that he was the problem. And so I'm just wondering as a board, who do they say that to? They don't just say, yep, we're part of the problem. There's got to be someone on the outside or something that is helping them not only admit it, but then, okay, now what do we do about it?

Is that like a vital church ministries? Is that something internal? What do you think?

David Miles (25:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, admitting it is, think about this, admitting it is discipleship.

Okay, admitting it is applying the gospel.

admitting that I've got, you know, I don't have the answers and maybe I really kind of screwed up here. I mean, that's the freedom of the Christian life. You know, it's saying, this is who I am. It's almost like Jacob wrestling with the angel there in Genesis, What's, know, the angel, Jacob's not going to let go of the angel, angel of the Lord. And the angel, you know, the angel says, what's your name? And know, the guy's like,

Jacob, grab her, you know, I mean, he's like, it's almost impossible for him to admit who he is before he gets the new name. And so admitting that, like having the spiritual freedom to admit that is a huge part of resolving that. so that's what you've got to be able to admit it to yourself. And then here's what I've learned. Okay, if I can deal with me,

Jason Allison (25:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (25:46)
Mm.

David Miles (26:05)
and faced the ugliness and Dave Miles in my marriage as a father, right? As a friend. And then when I stand up in front of a group of people, this is what I found guys, as an interim pastor, I will stand up and own my stuff. In fact, I'll admit this, I've actually told people, I've actually lied at one point years ago, know, admitted something I hadn't even done just to free the people that was years ago and I confessed it as sin on your podcast.

It frees people.

you know, to admit what they've done. And when you've got the lead pastor doing that and you do it on a staff level and you do it in coffee shops and you do it in golf courses and you do it, you know, in sermons and you do it in elder board meetings, pretty soon that, you know what that is? That's discipleship. Now everybody else is going to like, my gosh, Miles can do this. Okay. You know what? I can do it too. And there's freedom because there's grace.

Jason Allison (26:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Miles (27:03)
So this whole thing has got to be immersed in the gospel of God's grace. I mean, the most beautiful thing, right, isn't grace. I just love the grace of the living God. And the more I understand the depth of my own depravity, the bigger God's grace becomes. And when that happens, it frees not just the pastors and the staff and the board, it frees the whole church.

Rob Paterson (27:22)
Yeah, Dave is your is your telling this? I'm you know, I'm thinking there's a this family in my church that God is just like set on fire in some pretty awesome ways. And a member of this family, I sent them a text yesterday just to praise, you know, like the ways that they have been living and growing. And and this person messaged me back and just said, I'm really struggling because like I I always want to default to sort of.

my own effort and work because I want to do better and be better because I want to be the best possible example of a follower of Jesus for others. and then, you know, and so like they were just articulating the struggle and this person's, you know, about probably 15 years younger than me. And I just, was so much fun just to have a back and forth for, don't know, 45 minutes, maybe this morning, just for me to tell stories of, know, I used to feel as a pastor, the stress and pressure to

have a perfect marriage and have a perfect family. And you know what? All of my perfection didn't really do much. Nobody really wanted to talk to me because in some ways I probably seemed inaccessible and I wasn't relevant to my people's lives. But as we, my wife and I bumped into some bumps in the road and hiccups and as we were honest about those things and as we did the hard work and navigated them well.

actually God has used those kinds of things and more of our brokenness than he ever used our attempts at perfection. so just for me to say, you know what? You don't need to worry about all that. As long as you stay on the ride and keep your eyes on Jesus, he's gonna do what he wants in you and through you. It's not about your perfection or your work or your effort. And it was so much fun at the end to have this person go, thank you. Just having a little conversation and getting some perspective.

I don't have the anxiety I felt, you know, a couple hours ago when we started this conversation. And so, you know, I do think that there's like powerful, you know, truth in what you're saying, man, when we can own our stuff and we can be honest, you know, I mean, we don't want to just wallow in the mud all the time, but that's gotta be a part of, you know, our churches, our lives, our ministry, and really preparing for the next seasons that God has for us.

David Miles (29:33)
True, and helping a board and a church do that, wow, that's gold. That's gold. mean, that's what you're doing is you're bringing people back face to face with the need for Jesus Christ. And so that's what the transition is about. And the sad thing about it is that a lot of us, I don't think pastors mean to do this. I've certainly done that. We're very moralistic.

Rob Paterson (29:58)
Mm.

David Miles (29:58)
Here's what the Bible says, now go do it.

Well, if you think about it, that's a pretty lame understanding of sanctification. Because now I'm telling you, hey, got it, know, God saved you by grace, then you got to work hard. You you better work harder, you're toast. You know, you're better work hard. And instead of saying, look, you're saved by grace and God accepts you. And as a result of that, out of His beauty and grace, then you desire to work hard. And then the Holy Spirit changes your heart, your heart, right? And you put off.

Jason Allison (30:15)
Yeah.

David Miles (30:29)
Your sin, I repent, you put on. His righteousness, I choose to obey. And that's when God changes you. And so that's not been the message that, you know, lot of, and sermons that I've preached for years, right, very moralistic. So we're trying to be a grace-based organization and inviting people into this. And just what we've seen, Rob, is that, you know, to your point when you give someone the freedom to be, you know, honest about their stuff, well, it's liberating. Now here's the thing.

Jason Allison (30:42)
Mm.

David Miles (30:57)
In some cases, might mean, okay, as a board member, I need to step down and get things right before I take care of business. I got to take care of business before I can lead.

Jason Allison (31:05)
Yeah. Well, speaking of that, not that well, how does a pastor know or what are some ways that a leader can know when it's time to transition out of their current ministry and, you know, move to whatever's next? Have you seen anything that that seems to be helpful in discerning that? And I know you're not given a formula.

David Miles (31:06)
And that's when it gets really hard.

Rob Paterson (31:08)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:31)
in or anything like that. But what are some things you've noticed that maybe are helpful for a leader in that with that question?

David Miles (31:37)
Yeah, I'm not sure that that's my area of strength to even know that. Because most of the churches that we deal with have already lost their pastors, so we come in and begin to work with the church itself as opposed to the leadership per se. I would say if your passion is gone, if you're exhausted all the time, if there's

You know, you've just hit a wall where you can't deal with what's at the church. It's probably time to transition. And to own that, I don't think, I think there might be areas of like, if there are blind spots, people keep bringing up to you and you keep saying, no, that's not me. You know, mean, yeah, actually is, you know.

Jason Allison (32:05)
Yeah.

Hahaha.

David Miles (32:21)
You know, if you keep getting those kinds of things, then it's probably time to transition. And what I would encourage in most of those situations is the pastor do a real heart check and say, look, what am I missing here? And go get somebody help, know, somebody. There's people out there today that can speak into those situations, you know, to help you make those good transitions.

Rob Paterson (32:32)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:33)
Yeah.

David Miles (32:43)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:44)
Yeah. Yeah. So Dave, you said that, Hey, that's not really my area of expertise, but then you gave a great answer. So I want to ask a follow-up question in the same sort of area. I, remember talking to a guy one time who, he was, he was an interim transitional pastor at a church and, did a great job. has, has done that a number of times. One of the, the guys on staff was interested in succeeding him, but this guy grew up in that church.

David Miles (32:51)
Okay.

Rob Paterson (33:12)
He was the youth pastor at that church ever since college. And one of the things that, you know, his whole family attended the church. And one of the things this guy, the transition guy said was, you know what, if you become the senior pastor at this church, you're literally going to retire here, however many decades from now. And in his point was, you know, no church benefits from the same person for like 40 years. ⁓ And so on the one hand, you know, we do have this, this,

David Miles (33:36)
Right.

Rob Paterson (33:41)
idea that, you know, being there two or three or four years probably is not long enough to really do what God wants. So we need some longevity. But, you know, do you have any thoughts about like that whole idea of like, Hey, after you've been there, maybe this amount of time, that's that we get comfortable. Maybe we get complacent, you know, like how long is too long and what are some signs we should be kind of on the lookout for there? Do you have any thoughts about that?

David Miles (34:08)
Well, again, I I'm not sure it's my area of expertise. I can tell you what I've seen in several situations. There might be, there's some pastors that we've seen work in churches for a quarter century or whatever. They've stayed too long.

Rob Paterson (34:24)
Mm.

David Miles (34:25)
I mean, long-term ministry, but if you quit growing, if things are happening that you ought to be aware of and people keep coming to you and saying, hey, you got to deal with this and you don't deal with it, you're there too long. In some cases, very effective pastors have been there for a long time because their stuff has never been addressed. They're sin.

Jason Allison (34:30)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (34:46)
Hmm.

David Miles (34:47)
And so, and they don't want it to be addressed. Those are the places that I follow. But I've seen, like one of my friends is a guy named Pete Scazzero. He was at his church for, gosh, mean, quarter century, 30 years or something. Did a great job. And then they planned the transition. Very well done. Same thing with Tim Kelley. And obviously I'm an East Coast guy, I live in the East Coast. And so these are big names that are out here.

In fact, the pastor of the church that I go to when I'm not at somebody else's church, there's about 3,000 people right now, six or seven campuses. He's like in his early 50s, he's already thinking about succession. Now that's the, that's the, that's the path of wisdom.

Jason Allison (35:27)
Yeah. Yeah.

David Miles (35:29)
And so that self-awareness, that self-awareness piece, the ability to love others well and be self-aware, that will help you determine whether or not you should continue to stay. But I would hope that the church is so important to you that you would be saying, look, if this isn't a good fit, I'll go someplace else. But it's very difficult. It would be very difficult for somebody, Rob, to grow up in a church, have your family there, and to admit after a certain amount of time, you know what, I'm the wrong guy for this place.

Jason Allison (35:39)
Mm.

Thank

Well, so let me let me flip the question around then. What advice would you give a pastor who is coming into a church? know, like you've been there for 18 months as the transition person. Chemistry staffing worked, you know their magic and they've got a new person coming in and he meets all the qualifications. You know, like this should be a good fit. What would you tell this incoming?

Rob Paterson (35:55)
Yeah

Jason Allison (36:21)
pastor, what are some little nuggets of wisdom that you would say to get himself ready to step into a new position at a church?

David Miles (36:31)
Yeah, I would say every pastor try to think of if you're if in that situation, think of it like this. You're an interim pastor. Every pastor is an interim pastor. Think about it.

Okay, if I'm there 10 years and another person comes in, well, there'll be people at that church been there for 40 years and they're gonna be there for another, you who knows how long, but every pastor is an interim pastor. So you want to be the pastor specific to that church, what they need, who they are, what that community's like. So you don't come in and bring your stuff and your dog and pony show. You say, who is this group of people and do I fit this group of people? You know, my calling, my gifting, you know.

and how long does that look that will be. That would be the first thing that I would tell a person. If you want to be successful, you find out who you're pastoring and then you don't force them to become like you. You're called to minister in that particular situation. Urban setting, rural setting, suburban setting, all very different.

Can you, could you have enough emotional awareness to know that, how am I gonna act in this particular setting is different from other places? That'd be the first thing I'd say, okay? Get to know your people and then, you know, speak into that. Do become that. You know what I would do as an interim is I would figure out which baseball team that they, you know, would cheer for. And then I'd buy a baseball hat and I'd wear that hat around when I was at the church.

Rob Paterson (37:54)
Hmph.

David Miles (37:54)
which is

a problem if you're in places like San Francisco, because they got the Giants and the A's, or the Yankees and the Mets. But that's the point is that I'm going to identify specific to that particular congregation. That's the first thing I would do. The second thing I'd be saying is you got to be with these people, love on these people. Interim pastors go in, I try to love on people, but I'm there to change things, facilitate the change. That's my job. But the long-term pastor,

Yet your job is not to change things super fast. It's to love on these people and move them into the great commission, the great commandment.

Jason Allison (38:28)
Hmm.

David Miles (38:28)
Yeah, so that's, know, so this is not about me. The church is not about Dave Myles. It's not about Jason Allison. It's not about Rob Patterson. It's about Jesus Christ. And so if you're a pastor or a board member, you got to do what's right for the church. That's what's not what's right for you. And the reason guys like me are so important today is kind of guys like us aren't thinking that way.

Jason Allison (38:30)
Yeah, that's good.

Right.

Rob Paterson (38:50)
Yeah,

yeah, yeah. So they, it's funny when you said that Dave, I, last night my wife and I were invited over to a family in the church's house. We we'd never been to their place before, but we knew they had like 150 acres and they have chicken barns and I mean just do lots of things, just racing. So, you know, our youngest was with us. He swam in their little pool and we like got a tour of the property after supper. It was great time, but because we're going over to a farm, I didn't even think about this.

I have a big truck. I live in a rural area. So that like gives me street cred around here. And, and then we have like an SUV and I'm like, Hey, we're going over to a farm. Let's just drive the truck. So we drove the truck. We pulled in man. First thing they're like, nice truck. totally fits with all of our trucks. And I mean, literally for 10 minutes, we talked about my cool truck and their cool trucks and you know, which again,

David Miles (39:24)
Right.

Rob Paterson (39:44)
Like you gotta like smell like, look like, act like your sheep. You you just, you gotta do that. And then that, that works. So, Hey, just, just maybe a final question, you know, as, as, as pastors transition, like what are some of the real challenges of a transition that pastors might not like think about? And like you said, everybody's kind of a, interim, even if you're there 10, 15, 20 years, how can we always kind of be

ready and prepared for those moments where God may be leading us to something else.

David Miles (40:18)
Boy, again, I...

I would guess I would, there's a guy named Robert Clinton who's done some significant work in a book called, I think, The Making of a Leader, I think is what the book's called. And he talks about a lot of these.

Jason Allison (40:27)
Mm-hmm.

David Miles (40:31)
how God shapes a leader. And then he's got all these, he was an engineer, so he's got all these different ways that God shapes, you know, we call them process items, he's got his own language and everything. It's very difficult book to read. It's the best difficult book I've ever read. You know, it's just, but understanding that, understanding that this is about being shaped and formed into the likeness of Jesus Christ. It's not about

anything really, it's about me being shaped and then me inviting other people to be shaped into the likeness of Christ as a pastor that would actually resolve or prepare for any kind of transition you're looking at in the future and prepare the church because they need to think the same way.

Jason Allison (41:12)
Yeah, that's good. Well, we are about out of time here. And Dave, you know, you and I have talked before, and so I know we could talk for another hour, two hours and not run out of topics. And I know you keep saying it's not in your area of expertise, but you've been around long enough that I think you can call yourself an expert in a lot of things that you may not have some letters after your name to match it.

David Miles (41:32)
Thank you.

Jason Allison (41:35)
But yes, we appreciate you taking some time just to share your insight and your wisdom and your experience. That's the thing is you have been around the block in a lot of ways that I, Yeah. Well, so our listeners, if they want to reach out, they can search for Vital Church Ministries, and I'll put a link in the show notes and stuff. And we just appreciate what you're doing and look forward to.

David Miles (41:45)
⁓ That is is true. I got a lot of that. There's no question about that. Yeah

Jason Allison (42:01)
Probably talking to you again, even around other issues and topics as they come up.

David Miles (42:06)
I would love to do that. I enjoy conversing about these things and it's been, you know, a life changing for me personally. There's, yeah, I wouldn't, yeah, I'm, feel like God's chosen to do something through vital church and I just get to be part of it. And, know, we're in a very, I mean, the season of Christianity in America is very, it's very difficult right now. It's very challenging. We're, it's, we're polarized as as churches. And so,

Yeah, so we've got some work to do.

Jason Allison (42:33)
Yeah. Well, we appreciate you and look forward to having more conversations and hopefully getting out to see you sometime soon. So Rob and I can play around a golf with you. That would be a lot of fun. Well, to our listeners, we appreciate you and we would appreciate it if you would like and subscribe and share the podcast that helps other people be exposed to amazing people like Dave Miles and vital church ministries. We appreciate all that. Have an absolutely amazing week.

David Miles (42:42)
with hot things.

Jason Allison (43:01)
Stay cool this summer and we'll see you soon.