From the Mailroom to the Boardroom

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson discuss the challenges of leadership during the summer months, transitioning from local church work to denominational roles, and the importance of maintaining relationships. They are joined by Dana Wood and Kirk Zell, co-authors of 'From the Mailroom to the Boardroom,' who share their unique leadership journeys and insights on effective leadership. The conversation emphasizes the significance of people in leadership, the concept of agape love, setting expectations, accountability, and the necessity of having difficult conversations to foster trust and growth within teams.

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Chapters

00:00 Summer Transitions and Leadership Challenges
02:35 Introducing Leadership Insights from Dana Wood and Kirk Zell
05:27 Personal Journeys: From Mailroom to Boardroom
07:59 The Importance of Leadership Principles
10:43 Understanding People in Leadership
13:09 Agape Love in Leadership
15:48 Building a Supportive Culture
18:12 Leading by Example
21:25 The Power of Personal Branding
23:44 Leading by Example: The Importance of Actions
25:34 Balancing Expectations and Personal Well-being
26:34 Setting Expectations: The Role of Leaders
28:44 The Necessity of Difficult Conversations
31:25 Learning from Hard Conversations
35:38 Building Trust and Communication in Leadership
38:02 Leading with Love: The Foundation of Leadership
39:36 Promoting Community Initiatives and Outreach
43:59 New Chapter

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01.4)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Jason Allison and Rob Paterson. That's it. That's it. How are you guys doing? Yeah, Rob, how's life, man? I feel like I just saw you a week ago. wait, I did.

Rob Paterson (00:11.029)
Nice.

Rob Paterson (00:17.897)
You know, yes. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because we just saw each other, but you were so busy and I was busy. And so we were in the same space and we saw each other and we even had what? Like probably 20, you know, 32nd or less interactions, but we really did not get to interact much.

Jason Allison (00:35.404)
No, we didn't. was sad, but you know what? That just means we're gonna have to play a little golf or something to make up for all that time that we didn't get to talk or catch up. So yeah. Well, man, so summer is upon us. And I know there are pastors and leaders out there who, some of them are so excited that it's summer, because things slow down. Some of them are overwhelmed because vacation, Bible school, and then they, yes, yes. And so.

Rob Paterson (00:58.207)
They saw the giving report from last week. Yeah.

Jason Allison (01:03.158)
I'm just curious, like how do you manage that up and down feeling through, know, through the summer? What are some things you've done to help manage those emotions?

Rob Paterson (01:13.587)
Yeah, that's that's so good for and for me and we actually I think last year with Courtney did an entire episode on this. So if people are newer to the podcast, go back and check that one out. Jason, you may have to stick in the show notes. I don't remember the exact title of that one. But, you know, for me, one of the things I have done for a long, time is I take July off and so I actually we're doing a very unique series at my church called Book Club.

which was an idea that one of actually our youth leader found from a pastor that he follows, that guy's church did it, I guess. And so basically the whole idea is, and we got four people who are gonna talk each week. And my question was, what is a book you've read recently that literally changed your life, changed the way you think about things, changed your faith in the way that you just sort of understand or interact with God?

and basically use that main idea as the driving force of what you want to share. And I think that'll be a fun thing to hear from. And I actually have some projects that I started a while ago at my house that have been long overdue. I could tell you about some of them, but it would gross people out. And I just spend time with my family. that's how I have managed.

Jason Allison (02:37.774)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:40.553)
just sort of health, longevity, and even, you know, making sure I'm investing in my family a significant amount as well.

Jason Allison (02:48.45)
Yeah, yeah, this will be my first summer where I'm transitioning from a local church to the denominational work. And so I honestly have no idea exactly what I'll be doing all the time because I'm still in the church world for the summer, but we're working through all the merger stuff. And then I'm also doing all the regional stuff. it'll be interesting. Maybe in September or October, we can report back.

to see if I actually survived and what happened. yeah, well, man, hey, we got a couple of guests today. Like not just one, but two, because we're just extra that way. Yeah, it's funny. I think we actually connected via LinkedIn and then we reached out and ended up getting a Zoom call and talked and we have with us Dana Wood and Kirk Zell. They are the co-authors of the book From the Mailroom.

Rob Paterson (03:26.931)
Hahaha

Dana Wood (03:28.192)
So.

Jason Allison (03:45.368)
to the boardroom and everything in between. And we, know Rob, you and I both have seen the book, read it and processed it some. And so they both have stories to tell and I'm not gonna pretend to know all of their backgrounds and everything, or at least not to remember it while I'm actually recording this. So I will just say to Dana and to Kirk, welcome to the Church Talk podcast. We are so glad that you are here. How are you guys doing?

Dana Wood (04:14.496)
We're doing well. Thanks for having us.

Kirk Zell (04:18.468)
Thank you. We appreciate being here doing very well.

Jason Allison (04:20.568)
Yeah. Well, good. Well, maybe before we dive into the book, we'll start with Dana. Maybe give us a little bit of your story and kind of, I know the two of you worked for the same organization for a while. And so maybe start with your story and how that came into what you're doing now and how that's working together.

Dana Wood (04:43.018)
Okay, yes. So my background is basically in leadership and human resources. That was my 30 plus year career at a large food service distribution company. And I actually started out in the mail room. I'm dating myself here because people are probably going, what's a mail room? Because I'm sure with technology, we don't have those today.

Rob Paterson (04:59.477)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (05:02.958)
Hahaha.

Rob Paterson (05:05.884)
They're wondering if there was a divide back then and there was a male room and a female room?

Dana Wood (05:10.188)
Yes, exactly. But, you know, back in the day, we didn't have email, we didn't have chat or instant messaging or cell phones, but we did have voicemail. But everything traveled through the mailroom. again, it was a large organization, we handled about 10,000 pieces of mail a day. And I will say, if you ever want to know something about a company, working in the mailroom was where you learn because you knew

Jason Allison (05:10.606)
No.

Dana Wood (05:38.712)
everything pretty much that was going on. But everything at that point was, you know, paychecks, benefits, marketing materials, everything went through our department. And that's kind of where I started out. And it was kind of unique in that the mailroom was part of human resources. So that kind of involved my career. And then Kirk, my co author, he was a general manager for a division. And we had just

split up the company into divisions and he needed a HR director and raised my hand and Kirk hired me so And then I worked worked in human resources as Kirk's director of HR And then went on to be a regional director of human resources for the organization. So Kirk was my my boss for a good many years

Jason Allison (06:16.962)
Well there.

Jason Allison (06:27.992)
Bye.

and you guys are still friends.

Dana Wood (06:32.262)
Absolutely.

Jason Allison (06:34.35)
Well, that's a good thing. That's a good thing. Well, Kirk, what about you? Tell a little bit about your story leading up to why you guys collaborated on this work.

Kirk Zell (06:43.506)
Sure, I actually started out out of college in the restaurant business and I purchased my food from the company that we ended up working for and my restaurant closed. I took over another restaurant and that closed as well. So I started seeing a little pattern there, but I was going to start my own restaurant when my salesman came to me and asked if I wanted to join that organization's sales rep. And I certainly didn't want to be a salesman.

particularly like salesmen, we'll keep that between ourselves. But I did it in order to learn more about the food and the business so that when I did open my own restaurant, I had a little better understanding of that part of the business. as I got into that company, it wasn't long before I knew I'd be there for life. And a lot of the reasons why are in the book, but the culture of the company, the values, the ethics just lined up with mine perfectly. And the ownership was incredible.

Jason Allison (07:15.735)
You

Kirk Zell (07:42.59)
From there though, I took a very, for me, improbable path because I enjoyed sales, did relatively well, and started getting promoted to the point where I was a sales manager. There were still a couple levels between sales manager and general manager, but I got called in the home office, asked if I would lead a division, and boy, first of all, it shocked me. And secondly, I declined a couple times.

I thought that people above me had to be better suited. I just wasn't ready for it. But the one thing the owner said to me that I'll never forget, he said, people tend to follow you. You you tend to be able to win people's hearts and whatever you don't know about all the other departments, you'll hire to. But we need someone who can grab people's hearts and lead them. And after a lot of prayer and thought, I took the position and I guess from there it took off.

Rob Paterson (08:19.125)
Hmm.

Kirk Zell (08:35.504)
had success in the first division. Then I took over a division that we just bought as a company to integrate them into our system. And then my last stop, and I'll say it in the book many times because Dana will probably chuck at this, but I retired two or three different times. then, you know, because the owners were such good people and so good to me, when they asked me to do something, I was very happy to do it. And I took over the last division, which was really struggling. And...

Jason Allison (08:49.262)
Ha

Kirk Zell (09:03.12)
you know, the one year gig turned into three years. And then after that, I retired. So that's really my story. But in the leadership was really improbable. And as you'll read from the book, it wasn't, I'll just say the first position I took, I felt so inept that I thought, well, the one thing I'm going to do is make sure I get to know as many people as I can and they get to know me so that if things go south, they'll at least stick up for me. That was really my thought process and really led into the way.

that I ended up being a leader throughout my career.

Rob Paterson (09:37.043)
That is so good. I love that. And hey, so the book is from the mail room to the board room and everything in between. Like Jason already said, one of the things I just have a comment about the book and it has really nothing to do with the book, but I'm seeing this more and more. And I really, really, really appreciate this. you know, for so long, it seemed like books were getting longer and longer and font was getting smaller and smaller and it'd take you like,

you know, forever to, and when you get into some of, in some books, you know, some of those chapters are just like the filler to hit like the quotas or whatever. And you're like, when you're reading a 40, 50, 60 page chapter of, you know, small and it's, and it's just filler stuff. And you're like, like I'm wasting my life. I'm noticing in your book, I think is perfect in this way. There's lots of space on the page. So somebody wants to take notes or mark things down. There's plenty of space for that.

And, and your chapters or how you have it structured is, very small. And one of my favorite business books, it's right over there on my bookshelf is exactly like this. And so, you know, as opposed to going, a 40 page chapter, I don't even want to start that two or three pages. I can read that very quickly. And, man, I still got 10 minutes before my next thing. I might be able to read another one or two things before I have to do that. And so I felt like that was just, it just,

That and the content made the book just so quick and easy to read and very helpful. So I just wanna say thank you guys for doing that as opposed to, know, we're gonna fill up way more pages and use way smaller font and seem more impressive as opposed to doing something that I think is a much more helpful tool for the readers. So I love that. But hey, I'm wondering if you guys would tell a little bit about like just why you wrote the book.

Dana Wood (11:29.184)
Yeah, I'll start out Kirk and then you can finish or add whenever I think that our passion is always is leadership. And I think in today's environment, leaders are it's so tactical. A lot of times it's metrics, it's your KPIs. It's you've got to hit that, whether it's, you know, the pastor got to hit those numbers, right? Get the congregation in the door, people in the seats. And I think it's so much focused on numbers, which is critically important. It is. But.

I think there's not much material or books out there about the actual people part of leading and how important that is because my thoughts are if you get the leadership right and you get people to buy in and follow you, the numbers part is going to come.

Rob Paterson (12:19.541)
Mm.

Dana Wood (12:19.884)
And I think that was, I think our reason when we started talking about this, because Kirk does an incredible job on talking about servant leadership and actually did that for the company we worked with and taught people servant leadership. And that's missing, I think, in our business climate today, in our leadership climate today, it's just missing.

Rob Paterson (12:42.824)
Yeah.

Kirk Zell (12:43.154)
Thanks, Dan. And the reason why I wrote the book was because Dana talked me into it basically. And believe me, I had no idea what I was getting into. That was pretty challenging for me. I can speak all day long, but it was very difficult to put it on paper. I will say this, leadership, especially higher levels, and our book's unique because it talks about principles from the highest level to a street level of leadership. But as if you read the summary,

Jason Allison (12:48.112)
Hahaha

Dana Wood (12:48.64)
you

Rob Paterson (12:48.969)
Hahaha.

Kirk Zell (13:13.078)
the principles are really the same. And I think that when people think about leadership, especially at the high levels, it gets intimidating. You know, I'm not smart enough or, you know, I didn't have enough schooling or I don't have a degree. Well, I would put myself under all those categories. I didn't think I was suited to be a leader at that level at all. But it came and I talked about in the book, but surveys, you know, when they ask high level leaders what they think their people want from.

You know, they think they want confidence in the answer and the strategic plan and, you know, all those types of things. When you ask people what they want from their leaders, you know, they want them to get to know me. They wanted to care about me. And I knew I could do that second group of things. Well, I, the first group intimidated me as well, but I knew I could care about people and, go for their hearts and really, you know, try to serve them to set them up for success.

And I think that's a message that the book tries to tell. And that's really why I wanted to write it is because all the aspects of great leadership come down to character and choices that you make. And it doesn't have to be intimidating. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to be able to do it. And I think that's important. And you mentioned it earlier, Rob, that you don't see that or hear that anymore. People...

continue to try to get a higher degree and read the latest books out there on leadership skills. But that's half the story and not the important half in my book.

Rob Paterson (14:48.329)
Hmm. Yeah. And guys, I love, you know, and what you both said together is so powerful because I think there's probably people listening, whether, you know, they own a business or a part of a business, whether they're a pastor or a high level leader in a church, then they feel like I don't have the skills that are necessary to be successful. You know, and Kirk, I mean what you just said, man, but if you can care for people, you know,

that is going to move the needle maybe more significantly than all those skills. And like you said, Dana, we just live in a world where people care about all those like fancy, impressive things. And we want, we all want to like, you know, sharpen our tools. We want to be able to get better at the things that we're good at and the things maybe that we, have deficiencies in. But what you guys point out in this book is so cool because like the important things are things that are attainable for everyone.

Jason Allison (15:47.264)
Yeah, so Kirk, mentioned asking, sorry, you mentioned, OK, you mentioned, you know, talking to some leaders and, you know, asking them about what they think their people want. And you started to allude to this just a minute ago, but on page 71, you really get that into a succinct question. You say, you you talked several leaders and you ask them what did they think their people wanted from them?

Dana Wood (15:47.392)
Yeah, and I think it was,

No, go ahead, Jason.

Jason Allison (16:16.472)
But then you went, you know, beyond that and actually asked the people that they were leading. What do you need from your leaders? If you don't mind, take a second and just talk about the difference in those two answers and and how that played out.

Kirk Zell (16:32.272)
Yeah, and the two answers are completely different. You know, the things that leaders feel like, and really, first going into leadership, the first inclination is try to impress people. Why did you get there and how smart are you and why are you put in that position? And all those things that you try to do, you try to have every answer, whether you have it or not, you make one up to make sure you don't look like you don't.

You try to have no faults. You don't make mistakes. You're afraid if you make a mistake, people are not going to follow you. You have the strategic plan. And all those things, obviously, to a degree, are important. But that's not what your people want. Your people want someone that's caring, that they get to know. It's funny how most leaders feel like if their people know them, they'll understand that they're

You know, the vulnerability is something people, leaders tend to shy away from because they don't want anybody to know their faults. Well, we all have faults. And by the way, the more people get to know you, that breeds trust. Trust breeds forgiveness. And that's the type of leader that your people want. You know, they want people that care. Certainly, they want people that will...

correct that, that will guide them to become better and aren't afraid to point out where they're deficient or where the gaps are and help them grow. And, and like I say in the book several times, if you give people what they want, they're certainly going to get you what you need throughout. And it's not the quick way, you know, the quick way is leading by power always works faster. The problem is it's not sustainable leading by authority takes some time to build, but

Rob Paterson (18:15.988)
Mmm.

Mm.

Kirk Zell (18:23.474)
One of the things I'm most proud of is that every division I left is still successful. And I told, especially the last one I told the owners, said, man, I might be the wrong guy. You need someone to come in here and, you know, but they said, no, just stay the course. And eventually it worked out. So hopefully that answers your question, Jason.

Rob Paterson (18:28.245)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (18:42.889)
Yeah, that's that's so good. You guys start out the book by talking about how Agape is leadership 101. Maybe talk a little bit about what you mean by that and why it's so important when you're leading other people or a team.

Dana Wood (18:57.962)
Yeah, think, you know, loving your people, to be successful, I think you have to love your people. You don't necessarily have to like them all the time, right? But you have to love them. And no matter how difficult sometimes that can be, you have to, you know, love the unlovable and lead and put them first. You know,

to make sure that you're meeting their needs that they need and helping them be successful, I think is what I'm trying to say. But yeah, you have to love them, them what they need. leadership, your leader often ends up in dinner conversations at night. Because how many times have we been, man, my boss said this or my boss did that. They're talking about it, either in a good way or a bad way. Your teams are talking about you.

And you you influence, have such a, as a leader, have such a big influence on how the outlook of that person and the influence on their lives. I think that's, leaders don't understand sometimes how important they are. And that it's not just the eight to five in the office. It carries on out of the workplace.

Jason Allison (19:57.678)
you

Kirk Zell (20:19.566)
And I would say this, agape love has nothing to do with the way you feel. You know, we're so used to love being a feeling. Agape love is the way you act and treat people, which is choice. You cannot choose how you feel about somebody. Life might be a lot easier if you could, but you can certainly choose the way you treat people. you know, in one of the parts of the book, can you really, can you root for somebody who's competing with you when they, can you be really

Rob Paterson (20:26.654)
Mm.

Kirk Zell (20:47.89)
happy when they win or can you, you know, there's so many choices that you're making, you know, like we talk about character. Agape love is choosing to treat people right. And over time, when you do it enough, it becomes your habits, which become your character. again, one thing we can't confuse because, you know, the word love, especially in the workplace makes people nervous, but agape has nothing to with the feeling. It has to do with how you choose.

to treat people.

Jason Allison (21:18.914)
Yeah. You know, as you were saying that it made me think of, you know, pastors, this, this may shock you, but pastors can be competitive, especially with the church down the street or the, you know, and after spending, you know, a few days last week with 200 plus pastors from our region, you know, it can turn into, you know, a little bit of a contest if you're not careful.

Kirk Zell (21:30.77)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (21:44.3)
Right. Where you start every, everything starts with, Hey, now where are you? How big's your church? Like that's the, the constant thing. And so I like that idea of cause and you guys hit the several times in the book, you know, how do you, how do you train your people to operate within the lens of agape, right? But you also want to keep that competitive edge going because that's what pushes people to, you know, move forward to get better at what they're doing. And, and I'm just curious.

How did you see that play out? Can you think of examples where someone was competing against someone, but because of the culture that you had helped build, it actually helped Agape to rule even in midst of that?

Kirk Zell (22:30.578)
Well, Jason, first of all, I'll say what's ironic about what you said. And I have no doubt because everybody's a little bit competitive that pastors can be competitive, but you have to step back and say, Hey, we're both in the same business. You know, we're both trying to save souls. Uh, you know, we're both and sure, you know, I'd like a few more parishioners or than you do, but, um, we're in the same business. And I think in our company was the same way, you know, um, it was a highly competitive environment.

Rob Paterson (22:42.677)
Mmm.

Kirk Zell (22:57.458)
There were sales prizes all over. There was not only sales prizes, but warehouse of the year, transportation, every level. The owners of our company saw that every person was important, not just salespeople. And it becomes very competitive, but you have to keep reminding people to step back. The overall picture, when the company's successful, we're all going to enjoy that success. And our company was smart because they had a profit sharing program that the better the company did.

So yeah, it was competitive. You wanted to win every sales contest, but at end of the day, if the mission was successfully accomplished, everybody wins. that's not in human nature for people to think that way, but it is, and you nailed it, Jason. It comes down to culture. You gotta set that culture. It takes time, but once you do, people either buy into it or they don't last very long.

Rob Paterson (23:37.237)
Mm.

Kirk Zell (23:52.754)
And it's not that we have to let them go, but if they're not, if they don't feel in line with the culture, they tend to look for something else, which is a good thing. So.

Rob Paterson (24:01.173)
On page 133 of the book, you say this. It's often said, do not ask your people to do anything you wouldn't do. And then you say, I would change this to say, do not ask anyone to do anything you don't do. Why is that so important?

Kirk Zell (24:20.582)
Well, and it goes back to something else I wrote in the book. know, I talk about what do you want to be known for? You know, wouldn't it be easy if you said, you know, integrity, honesty? So you put on a billboard that said integrity, honesty. That's what, because, you know, when you leave, your name's going to come up. And what do you want people to remember about you? Well, what's much, we're all wearing a billboard all the time. We are, it now has nothing to with writing, but the way we act is.

our billboard and it speaks louder and clearer than any words you could ever write down. And Rob to your question, if you can, if your team will be kind of take on your personality, they'll take on your traits that over time it just always happens. And the way what you do, the way you react to certain situations, the way you're willing to roll up your sleeves, the way you're willing to put your arm around somebody when they need it.

you have to be able to do that. And you can tell your team all day long to do those things, but if you're not doing it, it's not going to stick. And so I just relate it to wearing a billboard. Your actions tell everybody not only who you are, but what who your team is and what you aspire for them.

Jason Allison (25:39.778)
Yeah, yeah. And I wonder how a pastor, when they read that, you know, I've just one of the things that I realized early on, especially when I planted a church and I'm like, is I would challenge people in their spiritual walk, right? I would say things like you should be spending time in prayer and in scripture reading. And I realized at one point, you know what? I'm paid to do those things, right? And so I have to do them because of my job.

Dana Wood (25:43.904)
Okay.

Jason Allison (26:09.774)
99 % of the people in my church, they aren't paid to read scripture, right? That their job is not to prepare something every week. And so I was asking them to do something over and above their regular job. And so what you're saying is, you know, if I'm going to challenge them to spend time in scripture, to then I need to be doing that, not just because I have a sermon Sunday, but because it's that important.

And I can see that in a business setting where you talk about growing and developing. can see that in a church setting as a pastor and all that. And so I love that concept. That one just really stuck out to me as well, that it's just vital in what we do.

Rob Paterson (26:52.073)
Mm.

Kirk Zell (26:52.102)
And Jason, to that point, you can tell somebody something important, but if you're not doing it, how important is it really? And that's going to come out loud and clear, you know?

Rob Paterson (27:00.586)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (27:03.02)
Yeah. Well, go.

Rob Paterson (27:04.029)
Yeah. Yeah, Kirk, I'm guys, I'd be interested to hear you kind of comment because I know one of the things and this has been very popular, become popular in the business world and even the church world, you know, where people encourage like instead of, that's a weakness, get better at it, you know, do more, do more, do more, you know, it's more, no, you need to function in your areas and your gifts like that are, you know, like your, your gold, your sweet spot.

And, and so on the one hand, that's true. and on the other hand, I think we all feel the pressure to sort of be all things to everyone and to show up and to do things that if we go too far, you know, it can make us unhealthy because you know, we just are overloaded, in life. So how, how, do you balance those two ideas of wanting to model and to do the things that you're telling your people they need to do? And at the same time, you know, like have a healthy life.

Kirk Zell (28:03.238)
Well, I will say this. I think the most important thing that we can do, no matter what we aspire long term, no matter, is be successful where you're at. mean, whatever your mission is right now, make sure you're succeeding. Everything else will follow. And to answer your question, we do tend to want to be all things to all people and to be able to cover all everything going on. But at the end of the day, if you're successful where you're at, you're

Rob Paterson (28:18.709)
Hmm.

Kirk Zell (28:32.966)
you're doing your part and you're also modeling to other people that that's what's most important. So I'm not quite sure if that answers the question, but that's certainly the way that I look at it. You know, and you know, it's funny because so many people are more focused on where they want to be next. What's their long-term goal? All those types of things, but it all starts with succeeding where you're at, you know, and from there, the path takes care of itself. But that's hard to convince people.

Rob Paterson (28:43.539)
Yeah, that's helpful.

Rob Paterson (28:49.397)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (29:00.622)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, from a technical perspective, I just want to let people know we lost Dana. I'm hoping she comes back. We're not ignoring her or talking over her. I think she had an internet glitch or something. So we'll find out shortly and work her back in. Don't worry. But I'm just curious. on page 62, you say this. Leaders do not set

Rob Paterson (29:03.024)
Hahaha

Rob Paterson (29:12.917)
You

Jason Allison (29:28.204)
the expectations expectations are set by the poorest performers on the team. You know, first question is what do mean by this? And what can a leader do about it? But then I want to push it a little bit and say as a pastor, how you know, what suggestions, what ideas do you have for if I'm a pastor leading a team of staff? You know, I think your statement is still exactly true.

Rob Paterson (29:34.741)
Mm.

Jason Allison (29:57.07)
Like I don't think there's an exception just because we work in a church, but anything you might have to add to

Kirk Zell (29:57.552)
here.

Kirk Zell (30:04.976)
Well, know, over time, why would anybody go above and beyond when one of their peers is just getting by? If you're allowing somebody to just get by, it's obvious that's your standard. You know, one thing a leader cannot do is hold different people of different standards. so, you know, all leaders, if you ask them, do I set clear expectations?

Rob Paterson (30:18.677)
Mm.

Kirk Zell (30:31.078)
Most of would say sure, know, absolutely they know my people know what they need to accomplish but then at the day your performance actually setting the expectations for your team. There's no way some of them continue to really go above and beyond when they see that it's acceptable to just get by. So that's really an explanation of how that works. And so to answer your question about a pastor though, it all comes down to accountability. The high performer

has got to be confident that I'm taking the person just getting by during the reviews and during feedback sessions and pull them aside and say, hey, look, that's not how we do it here. That's not what we do here. And you're a C player. To get to a B level, you have to improve here. And to get to an A player, which eventually you're going to have to be if you're going to stay here, here's what needs to happen. It's very.

And you know, people are afraid to refuse, you know, of holding people, sitting down. It's hard to sit there and confront people, but it's as simple and it's as non-confrontational as objective as saying is right now you're a C player. That won't cut it here long-term. Here's what you need to become a B player. Next time we talk, we need to be there. And then we'll talk about how do we get to become an A player, you know? And by the way, what's more important than that is that when your A players come in is to tell them that you love them, you know, to keep your A players there.

but I think as a pastor, it's important that all your people are confident that the people who are not carrying their weight or doing it well are being challenged to improve. and unfortunately at times, it takes removing people from a team, you know, that, just have made the choice that, you know, they're happy where they're at and, that's all that you're going to get out of them, you know, so.

Rob Paterson (32:23.637)
Kirk, that's, so good. And you know, as part of that, you know, in the book, you both talk about, you know, holding people accountable, like you just said, you know, with reviews and conversations and that as part of that, you know, process, you gotta have difficult conversations with people. And I, I, know, I know a few people that like having difficult conversations, but they're weirdos. You know what I mean? Like if you really love telling someone something that's hard and blowing them up,

you know, there's something broken, right? For most of us, and I think pastors in particular, know, man, can not want it. We can be, want to be loving, encouraging, you know, all those things, but sometimes telling people that they're not cutting it and that, man, like that can hit them in a deep way. How was that whole difficult conversation thing? You know, how have you done that? And how has that really challenged your leadership?

Kirk Zell (33:22.098)
Well, there's a couple, think, very important things. First of all, it's important to be compassionate, but not apologetic. You you're not apolo- you know, you can't go in there apologetic that you have to tell them something because at end of the day, it's their performance that you're talking about. So it's good to be compassionate, but you don't need to apologize for that. Hey, Dana, good to see you. And you don't need to apologize for having that conversation.

Rob Paterson (33:29.205)
Mm.

Jason Allison (33:42.894)
You

Rob Paterson (33:43.397)
You

Dana Wood (33:43.427)
Thank

Kirk Zell (33:48.242)
Secondly, you got to realize it's an objective, not a subjective conversation. It's a conversation concerning their performance. It's not a conversation concerning them because it's much more difficult. And if you can keep it on as an objective basis where the gaps are, what needs to happen, where they're falling short, also very importantly, what they're doing well. It's a much different conversation because and you know what?

Rob Paterson (33:57.737)
Hmm.

Kirk Zell (34:16.146)
When that conversation does become easy, it's time to get out of leadership in my book because it's, first of all, it's the key to accountability. And secondly, I often tell a story. If at my retirement party, the owner of the company came to me and said, we really appreciate your career, but if you'd have only learned how to do this, you'd have run the company someday. You know what I say to them?

Why you telling me now? And yet we don't tell our people those types of things. know, we don't, when we have the opportunity where they can make a difference in their lives, and really this conversation is not something to make your company better, it's something to help make them better and better their lives. And as a leader, you owe it to them to tell them when it can make a difference, not at the retirement party for sure.

Jason Allison (34:46.51)
You

Dana Wood (34:47.651)
you

Jason Allison (34:49.635)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:54.965)
Mm.

Jason Allison (35:12.579)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dana, you, welcome back by the way. I, sorry, you had whatever glitch or whatever that happened there, but, you, that's all right. I remember, and I didn't write this page number down, but I remember you told a story about having a hard conversation or not having it and then having it, with someone holding them accountable. And maybe you could recount a little bit about that and why it was so important.

Rob Paterson (35:12.926)
Yeah.

Dana Wood (35:16.675)
Thank you. Yeah, I'm not sure what happened.

Jason Allison (35:40.248)
to have that conversation early, not later. And I'm especially thinking in the context of, you as a pastor, I have a staff and you know, sometimes it feels like, well, I'm their pastor. I can't really be mean to them and say what they're doing wrong. But then I look around and I get frustrated and then no one's happy. I don't know, Dana, expand on that a little bit. Cause I know you did, you know, in the book.

Rob Paterson (35:45.205)
in the context of as a pastor, I have a staff and sometimes it feels like wrong to have pastors and I really need to say what was wrong but then I'm surrounded by the pastor.

.

Dana Wood (36:04.225)
Yeah, yeah. So difficult conversations aren't easy. I'm not. I don't like doing them. I don't know if anybody does it. It's hard, but if we don't have those, I had an instance where an individual wasn't performing. But the former manager had said, well, they're a good cultural fit. Everybody loves this person, you know, so that makes up for her for this person's inability to do the skill part of their job.

Rob Paterson (36:23.573)
Well, there are people who are like that. Everybody loves this person.

Dana Wood (36:34.443)
And times got a little bit tough and cutbacks had to be made and hard decisions had to be made. And this person's role had to go from, or this position had to go from two people down to one. And that made it difficult. Who, who's, who am I going to keep the person that, that was doing the job and hitting all the performance metrics and doing the job or with this person who was a great cultural fit, but just didn't have the skill part and couldn't do the job.

Rob Paterson (36:36.725)
a man, time stopped, a little bit tough, and cutbacks had to be made, and hard decisions had to be made, and this person's goal had to go from this position, had to go from two people down to one, and that made a difference. So am I gonna be the person that was doing the job of getting all of the metrics and doing the job, or was this person a great cultural fit?

Dana Wood (37:02.563)
And now if we're going from two persons down to one, that's the added burden that this person would have to take on when they couldn't even do it with two people. And so unfortunately, this person we had to lay off and that was tough. That was on the company that was on me because nobody had had the tough conversation and tried years previous saying, hey, this isn't working out. Here's what you need to improve on.

Rob Paterson (37:04.975)
Mm.

This is where you are.

Dana Wood (37:32.259)
This is where we need. This is where you are. This is where we need to be. And how can I help you get there? And if you can't get there, then it was going to be my responsibility maybe to find something else at that time that that person could do. But by this time it's too late. The company was was, you know, cutting back and there was no place so that this person could have slotted in that maybe would have been a better skill set. So it was that really loving that gap, loving that person because we just kind of let this person build their life around,

Rob Paterson (37:39.445)
in there. If you can't get there, then you can find something else at that time that that person could do. But by this time it's too late. company was cutting back and there was no place for that person. It was that really loving that person because it just kind of built a rivalry. Two children, a car, house, mortgage, all that built on your...

Dana Wood (38:01.709)
two children, car, house, mortgage, all that built upon years of service at the organization. And now we're at that point where, because we hadn't had those hard conversations, hadn't tried to mentor a coach, that was very unfair, very hard lesson to learn for a leader, for me being the leader.

Jason Allison (38:20.713)
Well, yeah, and I mean, and I've been on both sides of that conversation where I'm the leader and I have a staff and Rob, I want to poke you on this a little bit too, because you have that where you have a staff and you have for 15 years. And so I want to ask you. But before that, you know, I remember being a member of a staff and then.

you know, going in one day and they're like, well, we think you are failing in this, this and this. I'm like, Whoa, this everything was wonderful until this morning. Like what, what changed? Why haven't you told me any of this? I didn't even know this was expected of me. And so then you feel betrayed, you feel upset, and then you start wondering, are they ever going to be happy with me? Like did I, have I ever done anything right? Am I doing it? And it sows those seeds of distrust into the culture.

And so having those conversations, you know, with Agape, right? You know, and saying, Hey, I care about you enough to say, I would love to see you here long term. And that means we want to see you improve in X, Y, and Z. Rob, from a, from a pastor's perspective, you know, you, you run a staff, you've got multiple people on the staff. you know, how, how do you see that playing out, you know, in a, in a church staff setting?

Rob Paterson (39:40.423)
Yeah, for me. And I think this echoes, you know, what Kirk and Dana have been saying all along too. I mean, I, I work really hard to have trust and deep relationship with my team. so that when things do come up, we have regular, you know, channels of communication where we can talk about things when they're small and starting as opposed to when they've become mountains and, and, you know, we have to lay somebody off and

Well, we're obviously going to pick you in this hard time because you're the lowest performer. And I loved how you said it, Kirk, you know, like, don't tell me at the retirement party, you know, what the thing that I didn't do, tell me early enough on, give me the roadmap for success. Okay. I'm a C player. Okay. How do I become a B player in your eyes in this organization? Give me that roadmap. And then whether I want to take it, whether I want to succeed here or not really then is up to me. And.

know, my ability to put in the effort and, and, you know, work to execute or not. I think, you know, one of the real challenges here, and it's magnified in the local church cause we don't typically have a lot of times our teams are made up largely of volunteers or at least part-time people. And so we don't have the leverage of the paycheck, you know, to say, Hey, if you want to keep getting your paycheck, I need this, this, and this. so the idea,

that, you know, for all of us, our strengths tend to also be our weaknesses. And so I can think of interactions with people who, man, their real gift was their love for people and their heart. But sometimes then having some of these challenging conversations with them, you know, even in such an optimistic and positive way as you could muster really, really was a devastating thing. And it took them sometimes weeks to recover emotionally from that.

which then in turn made it more challenging to have future difficult conversations with them. Cause you're like, I don't want this person to have to go offline for weeks in order to kind of get back to, to good after me pointing a few things out. so again, I don't, I, you know, I don't want to, I don't want that person to be less loving, less tender hearted, less caring for others, but I sure would like them to, you know, bounce back a little bit quicker and not be quite as devastated.

Rob Paterson (42:03.583)
When this isn't a you're bad conversation, this is a how can we all be better together conversation.

Kirk Zell (42:10.082)
And if I could add one thing, and those are great points, what's really important is that the foundation is set. If people trust you and you have their heart, even bad news, they'll accept it because they know your intention or honorable that you're looking what's best for them and what's best for the organization. Power people have that same conversation.

And the reaction is going to be very negative because they know that your focus isn't what's best for them and what's best for the organization. So really, it all starts with the foundation of building, winning trust, winning the heart, and making sure people know who you are and what your intentions are and what your mission and focus is.

Jason Allison (43:02.454)
Yeah, that's good. I think everything you're saying applies to both pastors and staff at a church and a business leader, a local business owner. All of these things just apply across the board. And Dana, you start the book off with talking about Agape as the foundation. that is so important. And I just want to encourage our listeners, if you're not leading with love,

Rob Paterson (43:02.921)
Yeah, that's good.

Jason Allison (43:31.81)
then you're not leading well. You're driving, but you're not leading. And so I just, that was one of the things that stuck out to me as I read the book that was just, man, I've got to lead with love if I'm going to really have an impact. So guys, you know, I hate to do this, but we're like already out of time. I spent such a great conversation. Is there anything else like when it comes to finding the book and anything you would suggest a best way for them to get it?

and, I know you guys are doing some other things as well. Anything else you want to throw in?

Dana Wood (44:08.547)
Yeah, so you can get the book on Amazon under both our names if you key us in and key in from the mailroom to the boardroom and it'll bring it up. Also, thank you Jason for giving me this opportunity. Other than writing, also volunteer in HR services to an organization called Mission Works. And it is a great organization. It is, I'm blessed.

to be part of this organization and to be their HR support. it's any church, any kind of help a church would need with their mission trips, it's there. MissionWorks has five or six different ministries. There's Mission Connection, there's Mission Linked. We offer insurance for missionaries. We can help plan a short-term mission trip for a church.

Rob Paterson (44:45.205)
It's any kind of a hope, a trick that you can use.

Dana Wood (45:04.587)
just all different types of services. just encourage your listeners to missionworks.global and check us out. We've got a lot of tools in the tool chest there to help out with your mission initiatives.

Jason Allison (45:19.628)
Yeah, and I will try to put those links in the show notes as well, just so people can click on those as well. yeah, Kirk, know you, I don't, what's the name of the food thing that you do? It's like PB &J or something.

Dana Wood (45:25.47)
Great. Thank you.

Kirk Zell (45:37.729)
Yeah. Yeah, now that we're having a given plugs, I guess we'll go there. But yeah, PBJ Outreach, Inc. And first of all, all proceeds from this book are going to PBJ Outreach. PBJ Outreach is a 25 year old organization that I'm president of and co-founder that serves homeless people in downtown Detroit. We every Saturday have three different sites where we provide and our mission is not to provide food, food brings them, but our mission.

Rob Paterson (45:58.09)
Hmm.

Kirk Zell (46:05.72)
is to provide dignity and hope and some respect and people that are never touched to touch them. The people have never looked in the eye to look them in the eye. People that have that just don't have conversations to converse. We train our people and you know, it's been such a blessing. It started because we took a card table, a couple loaves of peanut butter, a couple loaves of bread and couple jars of peanut butter and jelly and set it up downtown and just made sandwiches for anybody who's hungry.

But from there it grew and we have hundreds of volunteers and we're in our 25th year. And again, www.pbj.org. We'll get you to the link where our website is under reconstruction. So it's a little bit choppy right now, but all proceeds. And part of the reason for writing this book too, we're a hundred percent a nonprofit charitable organization that rely completely on donations. And we've been very blessed over the years and every time.

It's almost a joke every time we get thin, somebody blesses us with something to get us healthy again. But, you know, and that's one of the reasons for writing the book too is to hopefully sell a couple copies and help fund PBJ Outreach. So.

Jason Allison (47:15.438)
Well, we appreciate your time and we appreciate the time you took to write the book. I think it will be a blessing to a lot of people, a highly instructive, like Rob was saying, it's such an easy, smooth read. You can sit down and read big chunks and not even realize that you've read a whole bunch because it's just smooth in the way you do that. So thank you for that. And thank you for sharing the mission organizations that you're part of, that you volunteer at. That's always...

I know it's just something anytime I hear that someone started with something simple like a card table, couple loaves of bread, right? And some peanut butter and jelly and out of that has grown a ministry. It reminds me that we pastors try to have everything planned out and these big, huge splashy things. And honestly, it's the, it's the two, you know, two fish and loaves, right? That's what makes a difference to the masses. And so thank you for that. To our listeners, we just want to say thank you for.

spend the time, check out the websites. You can go to our show notes and see that or, or Google these guys, Dana Wood and Kirk Zell from the mail room to the board room and everything in between. It's a great book. We appreciate you and ask you to take a minute and subscribe and like the podcast and share it with some people that you think would benefit from, from learning these types of things and this kind of community. And feel free to reach out to us. We would love to hear what you're going through, what's happening in your world.

And if we can be of any help in that we are here to help have a wonderful week. We'll talk to you soon

Dana Wood (48:50.083)
Okay, thank you.