Developing Leaders and Why Conferences Suck

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson discuss the challenges of balancing busy lives, the importance of collaboration in ministry, and the value of equipping others. They share personal anecdotes about projects and friendships, emphasizing the significance of shared experiences and learning from experts. The conversation highlights the need for leaders to involve others in the process of ministry and personal growth, ultimately leading to a more successful and sustainable future. In this conversation, Jason Allison and Rob Paterson explore the importance of genuine care in ministry, the value of mentorship, and the evolving perspective on conferences. They discuss how personal experiences shape their approach to ministry and the significance of equipping leaders through community engagement. The dialogue emphasizes the need for authentic relationships and the impact of presence in difficult moments, while also addressing the practicalities and benefits of attending conferences for personal and professional growth.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody. Welcome back to the church talk podcast with Robin Jason. We are so glad that you joined us today. ⁓ man, it's, it's summer and like, I'm starting to feel the need to not be in an office, but I got so much to do. ⁓ and I gotta do it sometime, but yeah. ⁓ Rob, man, how are you today?

Rob Paterson (00:28)
You know what today? And it's funny. ⁓ you know, you, you and I, I think like some of the things we do in our lives, you know, we sort of are and try to be more polished, but man, with our podcast, like we just like, we tell people the truth, right? We tell people the truth about what just happened, what we just talked about. And you know, for both of us, we're just sort of in a season where like we have a lot of things happening in our lives. We have a lot of good things happening in our lives.

Jason Allison (00:45)
Yep.

Rob Paterson (00:55)
but there's just too many of them all at the same time. And so like when you say, Hey, how are you? It's like, I'm like, well, after this, I have to do this and then this and then this and then this and then this and then this. And then I have to take a breath and then I have eight more things to do. And then I'm going to wake up tomorrow and it's going to be the exact same, know? So, so it's a little bit loaded, but Hey, let me, when you said that it made me think. So yesterday, um, I, uh,

Jason Allison (01:11)
Yes.

Yes. ⁓

Rob Paterson (01:24)
We had a bunch of people over on Memorial Day, did a big cookout, cooked 10 racks of ribs, you know. I did, and I also invited you to drive up and eat some, so, you know.

Jason Allison (01:29)
You sent me pictures. Thank you. You did. Yeah, like, you

know, as you're sending the pictures of what you're cooking, hey, you want to come? Yeah, thanks for the, but that's okay. I know. I know. I know.

Rob Paterson (01:41)
You know me, you're always welcome. Any day, anytime, whatever you could,

you could show up and you'd I'd open the door and I'd feed you.

Jason Allison (01:49)
I know you would.

You would. Well.

Rob Paterson (01:52)
Yes. So, ⁓ so we had all these people over in one family. ⁓ and they, they're newer to the church, but man, they are sharp. They're high capacity. and, he right now, ⁓ quit his job. and I say that and you're like, you just said they were sharp and high capacity. That doesn't say, you know, he's been super, super successful. So he's like, yeah, this account, you know, that I'm sort of living off of right now. And then this other account and his wife makes good money too. And so it's just like,

He's like, I don't want to do something that is, is terrible and that I hate going to every day. So I'm going to go do something that I love to do when, when that door opens and I, that's cool. Right? So anyway, she keeps trying to like, will you take him golfing? Will you like have him come over and help you with a project? Whatever. Right? Like the, the yeah. And, and I've wanted to do that, but you know, it's like the rainy season in Ohio, like

Jason Allison (02:39)
No. ⁓

Please occupy him.

Rob Paterson (02:50)
you know, for the last seems like two months or whatever. ⁓ so we actually went golfing Sunday afternoon after church, which was fun. And then they came over to our cookout and of course my smokers run in. So my garage door is up and, and just, can see just my garage. That's just a complete disaster. And, ⁓ so he's like, Hey, you know, like, is there a project you want to do this week? I could totally help with. And I'm like, you know what?

there's like one little walkway kind of through my garage, through all the, the stuff. And it's again, it's not garbage. Like I have a motorcycle, I have a ranger, I have tools, you know, like big tools, like table saw and in a drill press and a band saw, know, like lots of big things that it's like, there's really no way to organize that space with all that's in there in a way that's like, just sort of wide open. ⁓ and so, ⁓ I'm like, you know what my ranger,

I got a windshield and I got a, a roof for it. I don't know, four or five, six months ago now. And they're in, they're in these giant boxes and they're in the way and the windshield's glass. if that like fell over, that'd be an expensive oops, right? And so I'm like, you know, it'd be really helpful as like a next step is just if someone come over, help me put on the windshield in the roof. And, uh, and then I, all that cardboard could go in the dumpster and

Jason Allison (04:02)
Right?

Rob Paterson (04:15)
I'd at least have my walkway back through my garage, which isn't the ideal, but at least it's a big step in the right direction. So yesterday was that day. And, uh, and I think that, uh, he got there, we picked a tie, got there at 10 o'clock. I'm like, I'm watching like videos that people made. I'm like, well, that one should take like 30 to 45 minutes and that one should take 20 minutes. Right? Like it's what they say. Of course.

Jason Allison (04:22)
Progress over perfection.

Aha.

Rob Paterson (04:45)
Polaris, if you scan the QR code and watch their video, completely useless. Gives you like, like, you know, of the whole process, it gives you like the first step and then that's it. And I'm like, why wouldn't you just show us how to do this? As opposed to showing me how to stick a seal on a piece of metal, like, which actually they showed that in all their videos, it's all the video showed. And, and that seal didn't even come in my kit. So I'm like, is my thing just missing the seal?

Or is it mine not supposed? Like, I don't, I don't know the answer to any of these questions, right? So we watched enough videos. We got it like started and then it's adjust, adjust the thing just right, you know, but it won't adjust. Like there's hardly any adjustment in the little seals on the side. don't know if they're supposed to go in or they're supposed to sit out, but they're kind of doing both on both sides and there's no way to shift it back and forth. And like after us doing this for like an hour or more, ⁓

Jason Allison (05:15)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (05:44)
I actually said, like it was kind of sorta on, but there were like eight other steps, but I didn't know where to put things or how to do it. So we put the box in the back. We drove this thing that 10 miles to the ATV place. And I'm like, Hey, the tape's not sticking there. The videos that Polaris provides are, terrible. And we took it 45 minutes later. They had it all on everything in the right place, all adjusted properly. And,

Jason Allison (05:57)
Mm.

Right.

Hey.

Rob Paterson (06:14)
And so then we drove back, I got the guy lunch and then we put the roof on, which was super easy, except that that wasn't easy either. You know, we, we, we were able to figure that out, but you know, I, I was thinking about a couple of things and I think this is true in life. It's true in ministry. Number one, sometimes we should let the experts do what they do every day because it's not worth our time, our effort, you know, to try to do things that are, are hard. And if you don't do them all the time next to impossible.

Jason Allison (06:36)
Right.

guess.

Rob Paterson (06:45)
And then number two, sometimes just hanging out with a buddy and figuring something out that creates a story like this can be a real fun thing. So if it doesn't need to get done well or perfectly, sometimes just taking some time to have fun and create a memory and a story is cool too.

Jason Allison (06:53)
Yes.

Wow. I feel like we should just take an offering and, ⁓ no, but you're right. Because here's the thing. Like knowing the difference between those two things is an everyday, every hour question that it, and it goes everything from parenting, like, know, when do I have this done or when do I invite my offspring to join me in doing something?

Rob Paterson (07:09)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Jason Allison (07:34)
that will take longer than if I did it by myself or had someone come do it. It will probably end up not being as good because we're figuring out as we go. We're not experts. but is the story and the shared experience worth it? Yeah. And so that's a constant question. And in ministry, I think you're right. It's the same. We, talk all the time about who are you bringing with you? Like, who are you doing this with who, you know, the leadership pipeline. And so if you aren't

Rob Paterson (07:57)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (08:02)
doing something, any of the things that you do, if someone's not with you in the process, then you are not developing leaders. But let's be honest, it is a pain in the butt to bring people along sometimes, right? It is so much easier just to do it myself and to get it done or to take it, you know, call in the expert and you know, if a, if a wall needs fixed, ⁓ you know, to call a maintenance person, a handyman to come in re re, you know, patch the whole

Rob Paterson (08:17)
Yeah. ⁓

Jason Allison (08:32)
sand everything down, repaint the whole wall. He could probably do it in, you know, two hours. And, but if I did it by the time I get all the tools out, I get everything going. get, know, it's going to be a half day job minimum and

Rob Paterson (08:44)
Yeah. Or,

or a two or five day job or whatever.

Jason Allison (08:47)
especially when I mess it up the first time and then have to go back.

Rob Paterson (08:50)
And,

and, and the reason we do it ourselves is because we can do it for, you know, cheaper next to free. we, cause we don't want to spend that $400 to have the guy do it, but it'll be done today. And I can actually do everything else and move on with life. ⁓

Jason Allison (08:55)
Yes.

Yes.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

so, you know, I just, but when do I involve people? Cause I mean, our, our task as pastors, as leaders, right, is to equip the saints for ministry. And so what are we doing to equip them if we're doing everything for them or hiring it done? ⁓ and so I think that's a valid question that I just don't know if we, really engage that question enough.

Rob Paterson (09:15)
Quit the saints.

Jason Allison (09:32)
as we go through just our day to day, I'm not talking the big stuff like, yeah. Okay. So when it comes to ministry teams and the hospitality team and the parking team and the whatever, you know, yeah, that's like systematically, we have to involve people. But if we're going to actually train up the next wave of leaders and empower them and equip them, then we need to, we need to be intentional every step of the way.

Rob Paterson (09:46)
Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, as, as you were saying that I was thinking, we started saying this at one point around my church that we are, we are no longer going to pay people to do ministry, but only to help lead and equip for ministry. ⁓ but you know what? Like, I mean, if you, if you really dig too deep into that, it breaks down quickly, right? Because like, for example, I mean, you know, you know, well, ⁓ one of my guys, Jeremy, who, you know, does lots of things around here, but he's like our worship guy.

Jason Allison (10:18)
Right.

Rob Paterson (10:27)
Well, Jeremy's great at that. He has a great voice. He's, he's a great musician, you know? And so yes, he develops other musicians, you know, he, he develops people, but you know, he does ministry too. And we want him to do ministry because it coincides with a lot of his gifts and his skills. And if he didn't do ministry, he only helped make it happen through others. Um, it, it would happen in a lesser way, you know, than him being, you know, me,

Jason Allison (10:36)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (10:56)
I, and I, and I love kind of doing life with people and bringing people along. It's kind of one of the things I do, but like, you know, even though I've developed a lot of communicators, I'm still the primary communicator. And if I wasn't, you know, that might impact my employment at some point, cause that's kind of part of the expectation. So it does break down, but man, I still remember a staff guy who was, who was a control freak who, you know, like just had a real hard time giving things away.

Jason Allison (11:08)
Right.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:26)
but then would have moments all like, you know, multiple times a year where he's like, I'm just so overwhelmed and exhausted. And I just, you know, I just don't know if I can keep doing this. And I'm like, but do you see, do you see how if you did it slower and brought somebody with you and taught them well that, yeah, that might make your life worse for like the next, however many weeks or months. But as soon as there were two of you, because you poured yourself into someone else.

Jason Allison (11:43)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:55)
your life would be better. And then man, you both do that again. And now there's four of you. And could you see how 12 to 18 months from now, it would totally revolutionize church and ministry and all that kind of stuff. If you just did it worse and did it slower because you were doing it with others and ⁓ you know, and he started to kind of catch on and, and, and that was good.

Jason Allison (12:18)
Well,

so when you and I were at exponential back in January, ⁓ Ed Setzer gave one of the general sessions. And, one of the things that he said that I wrote down, and I just remembered that I wrote this down, you know, he said, we will not succeed if we succeed alone. And it's like, wait a minute, we will not succeed if we succeed. wow. You know, like succeeding alone is not success in ministry.

Rob Paterson (12:35)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (12:47)
And

Rob Paterson (12:47)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (12:47)
so I do think there's something to be learned there as we think about leading, as we think about, you know, moving into whatever is next, you know, at your church, at your ministry, in your house, with your job, you know, what are you doing to bring somebody with you in that process?

Rob Paterson (13:04)
Well, and Jason, think, ⁓ I would, I would actually tweak that because in our culture, what we have learned, whether it's been indirectly or directly is that, man, if I'm successful, if I'm real, if I'm a great preacher, if I can care for everybody, if I can do it all, ⁓ I am successful. I'll keep getting my paycheck. I might even get like bigger, better opportunities and make more money.

people will give me awards. They'll, they'll sort of applaud me, but the, the long-term reality is even if you are incredibly successful, the church will not ultimately be successful and the kingdom will not ultimately be successful if we are just successful by ourselves, right? Because at some point you'll age out, you'll retire, you'll die, whatever happens to all of us.

Jason Allison (13:45)
Right.

Yes.

Yep.

Yep.

Rob Paterson (14:00)
And

then all of a sudden all the great success we were able to sort of do by ourselves and on our own goes away. And now everybody's like, what do we do? We don't know how to do this. And it's going to get done at a lesser level, even if we bring in someone else, cause they weren't as good as so-and-so and,

Jason Allison (14:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, so one of the tools that I've used, and I obviously I learned this from someone else. I didn't come up with it, but, ⁓ and you and I have used this when we did coaching with a team a couple of weeks ago, but the disciples journey and it, you know, it's an X and the Y axis. the X axis is, ⁓ you know, the confidence that a person has. And then the Y axis is, is the competence and, and the idea that when you have, you know, high.

confidence, but low competence, which would be the top left corner. You you kind of, don't even know what you don't know. You think you're really good at stuff, but you're, you're actually terrible. And so you got to work through that. And as a leader, you start with people there. And of course the question you always ask is, you know, or the, way you present this is I do and you watch. you, you have someone follow you, you have them, you know, understand you, you're teaching at that point, right? You're, you're giving them information and you're working through.

And, the guys at clarity house worked through this with me. and I've seen versions of it around, but the guys at clarity house we've had Shane and, ⁓ on before, but man, they, really nailed this down. But then you move down to the next quadrant, right? Which now of a sudden, you know, your, your competence is low. You're not good at stuff and you're starting to realize that you're not good at something. Yes. And so your, your confidence goes down as well. ⁓ and as a, as a leader.

Rob Paterson (15:35)
all the things you don't know and can't do.

Jason Allison (15:44)
moving with someone through this, you know, you start saying, okay, I do you help. So you invite them to be part of the process. And we were talking before we hit record, you know, you invite them to see how the sausage is made. And they realize, there's more to this than, know, Rob, didn't just open his Bible Sunday morning and think for a few minutes. And then yeah, like he actually puts preparation in, he actually does stuff, you know, and years of study years of education and all that.

Rob Paterson (15:57)
Mm.

and talk.

Jason Allison (16:14)
Uh, and when it comes to leading things, you know, th like there's a whole lot that goes into it, a whole lot of details that they, Oh, I'm, what, and this is, you know, we talk about this all the time. This is where you gotta let them struggle and let them work through some of it. And that's where the gold is, right? Too often we try to rescue them and make it easy, which actually doesn't accomplish anything.

Rob Paterson (16:35)
Right. And this I think is one of the things in helping professions, which you know, ministry certainly is one of those ⁓ that is always a danger because it feels so good to be the expert. It feels so good to be the one people need and come to and rely. Now we'll, we'll complain about it when we're overwhelmed, but man, on a good day when someone and they come and we help them and it helps, right? We're like, yeah. Like I, I rescued them. I pulled them out of the pit.

And if that's like the pinnacle of what we do, we're actually shooting ourselves in the foot. Like you said, we got to let them sort of stay in the pit and struggle so that they, they can develop.

Jason Allison (17:09)
Yep. Yeah.

Well, and ultimately we're stunting their growth and their opportunity to growth. ⁓ And so, yeah, but if we don't stunt that, if we let them struggle a little bit, we let them wrestle. move into that, you know, bottom right quadrant, which is where, you know, your, your competence is getting higher because you're actually learning to do something, but your confidence still isn't really high yet because you're, you're still, you still have to think about it, right? It's like driving a car. You know, when I first learned to drive a car, I had to think about every single thing.

I knew what to think about, but I still had to think about every single thing. And so in that quadrant, you you're inviting that person to you're saying, listen, you do, and I will help you. Like I'll walk with you out. I'm not going to do it all. You're going to do it, but I'm going to make sure you don't screw it up too bad. ⁓ and, so that's a, another phase where, but then hopefully they get to that top right quadrant, which is where you started. Right. And this is that, you know, unconscious competence.

where you're good at something and you don't have to think about it. And this is where you start saying to that person, you do, and I cheer, right? I'm there just to say, great job, keep going, you've got this. Now here's the thing, and this comes back to what you talking about a few minutes ago, as pastors, as leaders, we are in that top right quadrant, that unconscious competence. Hopefully, yeah, hopefully. Hey, if you're listening to this podcast, you must be a high capacity person, right?

Rob Paterson (18:21)
Mmm.

Hopefully.

Well, if you've been a pastor for like six months or a year or two, maybe you're not quite there yet and that's okay.

Jason Allison (18:47)
Okay.

That's okay. Yes. But if you've been around a little bit, you're going to, you know, you know what's going on. And so, and, and here's the thing when you're in that top right quadrant, you're valuable to the organization, to the people around you, because you have the knowledge, you have the expertise, you have the abilities and the further the distance between that bottom left corner, where a quadrant where the people realize that they don't know what they're doing and the top right corner.

where they see that you know what you're doing and you're really good at it, the further that distance, the more valuable you are. And therefore the more pay that you would theoretically get, which means systemically, oftentimes we don't want people to get better, at least not to a certain level, because then we become unnecessary. And that's a hard pill to swallow at some point.

Rob Paterson (19:35)
Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and even like kind of goes back to that, you know, kind of initial story about my silly adventures in, in, you know, I'm now a certified Polaris technician after yesterday. ⁓ but you know what I mean? Like there are certain things like, here's one for me, drywall. You know what? Like if I have a lot of drywall work to do and I'm doing it like multiple days over multiple weeks, ⁓ I actually get pretty decent because I'm, I'm a little bit of a perfectionist in my

Jason Allison (19:49)
Apparently.

Rob Paterson (20:07)
you know, orientation. And so it's like there is no such thing as good enough. If it's not perfect, I'm not super happy. ⁓ And so you know, but if you do it every day, you start to develop like, this is how it works. This is how it turns out. And and so you know, yes, there are some things though, that I'm like, listen, I don't want to do that much drywall. So if it's a little tiny little bit, that's easy, I can do it. Beyond that, I'm either gonna have someone come help me, I'm going to pay someone to do it. And so

Jason Allison (20:17)
Yeah. Yep.

Right. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (20:37)
I think it's not just that like our value and even sort of financial future is tied to it. There's a lot of things people are like, I just don't want to do that. I don't want to learn that. I don't want to grow in that way. And so I want to have or pay the professional to do it for me. So the system works against it too.

Jason Allison (20:53)
Yeah.

Yeah, yes, yeah. And so let's get really practical for a second. ⁓ You know, if you're thinking about as a pastor, what are some things, right, that you do that you bring someone else along, you know, that you include them in, that you incorporate them into that process so that they can, you know, be equipped. Maybe it's not to do that exact thing, but it's to be equipped to do ministry as it comes around. ⁓

You know, I mean, do you have something off the of your head that comes to mind when you think about that?

Rob Paterson (21:31)
Yeah, I have lots of things. And, and, you know, quite frankly, yeah, well, ⁓ so I think I want people to be around me when I'm with people who are far from God, so they can see how I interact, so they can see how ⁓ my approach to sort of evangelism. Because I think so many Christians, it's just this like,

Jason Allison (21:34)
Pick one.

Yes.

Yes.

Rob Paterson (21:57)
like I'm going to hit someone with a sledgehammer and hopefully they respond in a positive way. ⁓ and I, know, and then of course, which I think is almost one of the worst things that happens is somebody kind of newer in the faith sees that in a moment where that person, you know, has just in such a fragile frail state that they, it works. And they're like, ⁓ if I just smack people in the face with the gospel, man, it's going to work. And I'm like, you know, which is, think one of

Jason Allison (22:12)
you

Rob Paterson (22:26)
big reasons why so many people are like, I don't want anything to do with like church or Christians or whatever, because they're, they don't really care about me. They just want another little notch on their bedpost. And so, you know, I like legitimately care about people and want and want what's best for them in every way and in every area of life. And I try to like make my interactions with them, my relationship with them and the patience I bring to that kind of lead, not just me getting to what I want to tell you about.

Jason Allison (22:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:57)
⁓ and so yeah, I want people to kind of be with me and see that and kind of see the ultimate fruit of that over sometimes years.

Jason Allison (23:01)
Hmm.

Yes.

Right. Yeah. I know. So I remember when I was new into ministry, it was my first like real ministry job. You know, I was a children's pastor at this church and the pastor of that church ⁓ just became a mentor to me over the years, but he's sweet guy, loving to pieces. He passed years ago, you know, from my perspective being 23, you know, at the time.

I thought he was ancient then, but he was probably like our age. Um, but, but yeah, I remember one day he said, yeah, one day he, he, you know, popped his head in my office and said, Hey, let's go. I was like, what? He goes, yeah, we're going to the hospital. I've got three visits and you're going to come with me and you're going to learn how to do a hospital call. Yeah. And he just walked with, and I know we don't do hospital calls as often now. That's not, but

Rob Paterson (23:37)
No, he was ancient then.

Jason Allison (23:57)
I remember being scared to death to go to a hospital call because I just didn't know what to do. And, and he led it. He, just kind of shadowed him in that process and I don't mind making hospital calls. Like I, I know what to do. I don't like making hospital calls, but that's a personality thing. That's not because I wasn't trained, you know, but we, he walked me through it. He, I mean, he taught me like one little thing he taught me was every time he did a funeral, right? He showed me how to do stuff. then

He showed me in his, he had a calendar, a daytime or type calendar. He would write the name and so forth of the person who died, the date that they died. And one year later, he would send a card to that family. And I learned that and started doing that. And my gosh, it's amazing when you sent just a quick, Hey, thinking of you, I know the season's rough. Send a card, you know, a year later. ⁓ my goodness. People are like, I can't believe you remembered. can't, know,

Rob Paterson (24:37)
Mmm.

Wow.

Jason Allison (24:55)
I didn't remember. I wrote it down. Yes. But that's the thing is like, learned that skill by someone else investing in me and teaching me so that I could. And now, you know, when I go to do something, I'm always trying to figure out, okay, who can I take along? You know what? And, and, and that's sometimes it's easy. Most of the time it's not easy.

Rob Paterson (24:56)
I didn't. I planned.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, it's funny. ⁓ a lot of times we learn things like your great example right there, you know, where we had somebody who was skilled or at least experienced enough to have figured some of these things out along the way by themselves or because others helped them to do that. ⁓ but I, I found in ministry too, like if you're like, ⁓ yeah, I don't have someone like that. All my examples are kind of poor examples. I have actually learned more from people who did things.

Jason Allison (25:29)
Yeah. Right.

Rob Paterson (25:48)
poorly a lot of times than great people who were so like I remember in my first church. ⁓ So there was me, I was kind of the assistant pastor in charge of youth and Christian education was my fancy title. There was the senior pastor and then we had an old retired guy who he and his wife attended the church and we just we would always deploy him on visitation stuff when when we weren't able to go. ⁓ But over time this guy what we started to get some feedback.

Jason Allison (25:49)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:18)
was we don't want him to come because he would show up at a hospital visit or whatever, and he would just tell stories about him. I mean, the guy was old. He was lonely. I probably didn't have enough friends or whatever needed more buddies or what, but yeah, he would, he would show up and he would be in someone's hospital room when, you know, grandpa was dying and he would like just tell 87 stories about him. And people hated that. I still remember.

Jason Allison (26:19)
Doop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:45)
the, all three of us, there was a family in the church. This guy was passing away and his wife was there and, and, and, you know, we, we were all there and this guy was telling the senior pastor a story and I was trying to like ignore him and not pay attention. Well, the senior pastor was one of those guys who got up before God every day and then went to bed at eight 30 or whatever. So it's like nine o'clock we're in the hospital and the senior pastor is literally doing this, you know, like kind of nodding off and, and, and actually

Jason Allison (26:52)
Hmm?

Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:14)
fell asleep in his chair and the guy was telling him a story. He didn't miss a beat. He literally swiveled my direction and just finished the story. Even though I didn't listen to a word, the first half of it, like it was just for him, it was all about talking in that process. I learned this thing, like what people care about, especially in those most difficult moments where you're like, I don't know what to say. There's nothing you can say, but your presence speaks louder than any word. So when someone's like taking their last breath, you know,

If you're there in the room, if you're holding a hand, if you're just praying, you know, even just just you're there holding their hand with your head bowed just praying, not out loud, not as a spectacular show. Your presence matters and makes a huge difference. And quite frankly, if you start talking, it's going to diminish that, you know, huge equipping thing for me.

Jason Allison (27:46)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. the old saying, a wise man once said nothing. Yeah. Sometimes that's what we need. And that's where, you know, as we think about leadership and churches and bringing someone along, I do think that's important, ⁓ in, in that, and speaking of bringing some along, one of the things we want to talk about today is, conferences. Like, ⁓ you know, I'm in the.

Rob Paterson (28:14)
That's good. That's good.

Jason Allison (28:32)
the throws of putting the last few details together of our regional denominational conference. ⁓ since I'm on staff there and it's coming up in, you 10 days, ⁓ it's Convergement Atlantic. call it United and, ⁓ it's, it's just a gathering of the leaders and staff and team and, churches and we celebrate, you know, stuff, but we also tiny little bit of business celebrating the board that's rotating off, blah, blah, blah. Right. ⁓

But this is really the first year that I've been intimately involved in the planning of the conference, more than just some ideas.

Rob Paterson (29:08)
You now know

how the sausage is made, Jason.

Jason Allison (29:11)
Yeah.

And it ain't, it's nasty. But, but yeah, go ahead. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:13)
Hey, so let's, no, I have a question because this,

I think this is important. So like how long ago did this process take and like how much I I'm not looking for like hours per se, but like how much time, energy and effort goes into pulling off a two day event like this.

Jason Allison (29:34)
we started really planning hard and it would have been late August of last year. you know, tent. Yeah. And we were doing things before that, like making sure the venue was lined up. Like, I mean, it just, again, not heavy stuff, but at least, but yeah, was set. was late, late, late August, early September that we sat down and started mapping out what's the vision for the conference. What do we want to accomplish? What experiences.

Rob Paterson (29:43)
So 10 months.

Jason Allison (30:03)
Do we want people to have, we didn't have details yet, but we were starting to lay that groundwork.

Rob Paterson (30:08)
Yeah, that's so good. you know, Jason, I think this actually ties so beautifully into what we've been talking about because, you know, like, like, how do we get things done? ⁓ When do we need experts to speak into our lives? The value of community and just sort of being around others, you know, who are our peers, maybe who are a little bit behind us, maybe who are a little bit ahead of us and all kind of learning and growing together.

I mean, those are really the kinds of things that take place when we prioritize stuff like this. And, you know, kind of one of the questions that we were kind of wrestling with before this, and I think a lot of times pastors do wonder this, you know, like, are conferences even valuable? Or does it just take my time, my energy, my money, all of which are limited? ⁓ Or is there value? And, you know, I think probably,

Jason Allison (30:53)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:04)
I hear this a lot more now, and there's one that we prioritize as kind of leaders at our church, because it's different. And you came with us this year, I think you even said to me multiple times, this, even though it's big, it was different, you know, because here's the truth for most pastors in most settings, going to that thing, where you're spending thousands of dollars kind of for your tickets and accommodation and whatever, bringing some people from your church to hear

Jason Allison (31:14)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (31:33)
people who have resources you don't have, who are in environments you don't have, who are getting paid tens of thousands of dollars sometimes to speak for 20 minutes, know, to inspire all of us to do things that we're never gonna be able to do, that we're never gonna be able to afford, may not actually be the best use of our time, energy and resources.

Jason Allison (31:43)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we, lot of times, I mean, I remember time I wanted to be basically in the presence of famous people and a conference was an opportunity to do that. And, and I realized that's just pointless. ⁓

Rob Paterson (32:12)
Yeah.

But two years ago, you and I kind of had an aha moment and then you actually did something with it now being kind of intimately involved. So we, the church talk podcast actually got to do, we were invited to do a breakout at United two years ago. We do this, this event every two years and man, like our, our room and it was a pretty good size classroom was packed full of people. And then we had

Jason Allison (32:27)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:40)
dozens of people over the next day come to us. ⁓ man, we wanted to come to yours. We heard about yours. We, and so we started to have this sort of shift instead of hearing that like world-class communicator deliver an inspiring message in the big session. Like we were like, ⁓ you know what people being able to learn in a breakout, something that is actually very relevant to them, their lives, their ministry.

⁓ in a way that gives opportunity to be somewhat interactive as well, where they can actually ask questions and have access to the presenter was actually helpful. It equipped and and it was transformative way more than hearing like the best communicator on the planet speak. So, so how has that impacted, you know, what's going to happen now? ⁓

Jason Allison (33:16)
Yeah.

Yes, yes, absolutely.

Rob Paterson (33:36)
well, just a little over a week after this episode drops.

Jason Allison (33:39)
Yeah. Well, we're going to try something and I, you know, it's one of those things where we're going to try it. And if it doesn't go well, it's pretty much my fault, but that's all right. ⁓ no, we, said when we were talking about what experience do we want pastors and leaders to have while they're what, know, basically I wrote out a vision for this conference and it is exactly what the vision for church talk podcast is. said at this conference, we want to engage, equip and encourage pastors and leaders.

Rob Paterson (33:48)
Hahaha!

Jason Allison (34:08)
And so that meant instead of focusing on the big name speakers, right, to come in and wow us with their whatever from, you know, the book they just wrote or the, you know, the people they hang out with. We said we want our, we want our pastors, our leaders to be the heroes ⁓ that, that are celebrated when we talk about doing church. You know, we want to point to God as the one who's working not through the big names, but through the regular people.

And so we said, Hey, let's number one, instead of the main sessions being big name speakers, let's tell stories. Let's give our churches a chance to talk about what God is doing in some powerful ways. We're going to shape it so that it ends with a very powerful. Now, what do you hear God doing? What is God doing in your community that you're not going to do what they did, but what did you learn from that story that you can now apply? You know, so like, we're going to try that.

Rob Paterson (35:07)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (35:07)
And we said, if let's put our emphasis into the breakouts, you know, let's bring in and, know, I've got a litany of church talk podcast ⁓ alumni that are going to be leading workshops at this, know, Brian Dodd, Dave Miller, ⁓ we've got Matt Steen, we've got, you know, all these people who are, you know, coming in and they are presenting a workshop around their expertise. And it's exactly what you said it's, you know, and we extended the time for the breakouts instead of it being 60 minutes.

and try to squeeze it. We said we're going to do 75 minutes and we want every breakout to include at least 20 to 30 minutes of ⁓ interaction with the workshop leader. And we planned a whole bunch of them so that, you know, hopefully if even if it spreads out completely evenly, right, your workshop, you're probably only going to have about 10 to 12 other people in the workshop. So you get to actually dig in and learn about it anyway.

Rob Paterson (36:02)
Yeah.

No, no, no. I think that the brilliance of, our breakout, ⁓ at the last United had nothing to do with, you know, your brilliance or my brilliance. was because we set up an idea, talked about it for five minutes and then started asking people to give us sort of topics and scenarios that we interacted with in real time, which actually could have been an abject failure and disaster.

Jason Allison (36:15)
No. Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Could have been. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:30)
But it was so helpful. Like people love

that because for almost everybody, right? When we get to participate, it's better. Like, yeah, that was great. Why was it great? Well, I got to say a few words and I got to ask some questions and I got to get answers or at least a step in that direction. ⁓ and so yeah, I'm, excited about that. And like you said, this isn't just for the senior pastor of a church, which is kind of what this thing has been in the past, but, but it's, it's become way more accessible.

Jason Allison (36:38)
Absolutely.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:59)
And I know this because again, we prioritize one of these and we take for years, we've taken a group of 10 to a big conference. So tickets are expensive. Lodging for all those days is expensive. Food is expensive. Travel is expensive, you know? ⁓ But for United, mean, you guys, the team there in the office, Brian and you and Emily, ⁓ you know, decided this is going to be 40 bucks so that it helps

Jason Allison (37:28)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:29)
offset and defray. Like it really could not be any cheaper. You would spend more just on the meals that are being provided if you like eight anywhere, let alone all of the content and interactive thing and life together stuff. So man, like I know like I'm, I'm bringing six people. you know, I just talked to a buddy who's bringing seven or eight. ⁓ and, and so I, I'm excited about this. Usually I go to these cause like I sorta, I'm supposed to, or

Jason Allison (37:36)
yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You are on the board, Rob.

Rob Paterson (37:59)
you know, and now now I'm a board member. Technically,

I'm like a very I'm a independent contractor employee is like a regional area person for you know, Central Ohio. ⁓ There's lots and I think our churches are just strongly encouraged. You know, like this is when we get to affirm things and vote on things. So please, please, please come. You know, there's lots of reasons why we're all supposed to be there. But man, like I got the whole reason I've not like not wanted to bring other people.

Jason Allison (38:08)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:27)
But now that you guys have been intentional about saying we want to offer things that are going to help people, I'm bringing one of my children's ministry people. I'm bringing a staff member and their spouse. ⁓ I'm bringing our cafe leader who's crushing it and doing an amazing job. Like, hey, there's a little bit of something for everyone. It's super duper affordable. So why wouldn't we want to take advantage of this, not just for Bethany and I to have a couple of days, but really for

Jason Allison (38:45)
Yeah.

yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:57)
a bunch of our team to actually be blessed and benefit and have new ideas and stuff because they were able to be a part of this.

Jason Allison (39:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

And, and I'm all for making this conference really cool. And, and I'm, you know, I'm doing everything I can, working hard to make that happen for those of you who will probably not attend, but are listening because it's in a week and you're not going to travel to North central Ohio, ⁓ next week to, to attend, although you're invited and I will make room for you. So you reach out to me. I'll leave links in the, in the show notes.

We'll make it happen if you really want to because we would love to see you and hey, maybe we'll do something fun with just the church talk podcast, you know people and whatever but ⁓ if we if we move beyond that and try to make this okay, what's a practical thing that ⁓ a leader a listener of the church talk podcast could take from this is yeah, I've worked, know for nine months ten months, whatever Obviously not full-time all the time on this conference, but it's been in the in the hopper all that time

But what if you applied this to thinking about each Sunday as an opportunity for your people to gather? And maybe if you're, if you're a leader in a business or an organization, right? What are those regular times that everyone's in the room or that you interact with people that you can say, what am I doing to equip my people to do what they're supposed to do? What God has called them to do, what their job is.

Like not just a rah rah, not just a, I'm going to be so inspiring with this message that I prepared, but instead thinking in terms of, okay, how can I make sure that everyone walks away saying, not only did I learn something, but I'm, I feel trained. I feel ready to step into whatever my next step is. I was given space to think about my next step. That was in a meeting I was on just before we started recording. We were talking about the very end. What's it going to look like to create a next step?

Rob Paterson (40:41)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (40:54)
What is that going to look like? Because we've got, like you just said, a cafe leader, and then we've got the senior pastor of a church of 15,000 in the same room. And we want them both to come up with something that is their next step. And what does it look like in church if you start thinking like that when the sausage is being made?

Rob Paterson (41:14)
Yeah. So we have like 90 seconds left. Wow. I mean, we can take as long as we want, but, but, Hey, for those of you who are still with us, let me just push a little bit. And I'm not just pushing on you. I'm pushing on me too, cause this is something we as pastors do. and, and I just want to give a little push, especially if you are even remotely able to think about coming next week. So,

Jason Allison (41:17)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (41:41)
almost every pastor I know has felt this at one time or another, man, you know what, like my people were kind of into summer or at least heading into summer right now. Right. And it's like, I know my people, they're going to go on vacation. That's fine. But man, they're also going to go on that hike because the weather was so great. Like they don't have any idea how much time, how much energy, how much effort

Jason Allison (42:04)
⁓ Yeah.

Rob Paterson (42:07)
that it took me to prepare this message that took to coordinate everything. How much time others, the, the, the worship team, the children's ministry folks have spent getting ready for you this week. And then you, it just seems like you will do anything and everything except for show up and it, man, sometimes it gets to us, right? It wears on us. We, we just, ⁓ like why don't people value all that we've done for them?

So we will, we will feel this. Sometimes we will even articulate it. Right. And yet when a group of people who help us are here to equip us and serve us have spent the last year to in a, a very affordable way, offer something like this for us. And we're like, I'm, I'm busy. I got this. I got that. We are doing exactly what our people are doing. ⁓ and so you listen again, I get it. Sometimes there's legitimate things.

But a lot of times we've known about this forever. We've had the dates, we've gotten emails. If there's any way for you to be a part of this, ⁓ let's not complain and then do the exact same thing. ⁓ Let's actually be the kinds of people who appreciate what has been done for us and do everything we can to benefit from it as well.

Jason Allison (43:17)
Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. Well, we appreciate you, our listeners. We're excited about just what's coming up over the next few weeks and months. We've got some interviews lined up that I'm excited about, some new friends to introduce. ⁓ And I'm just glad that, you know, we get to share a little time with you each week. We hope it's beneficial. Please reach out to us. Let us know what's on your mind. What are you thinking? We would love to interact and to support you in any way we can.

Rob Paterson (43:29)
you

Jason Allison (43:53)
Do us a favor and share the podcast like and subscribe all that fun stuff. Share about it on your social media stuff. If anybody actually does that anymore. No, we do appreciate it. Have an absolutely amazing week and may you be blessed.

Rob Paterson (44:02)
Yeah