The Brain Change Program with Alan Weissenbacher

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson engage in a lively discussion about sports, weather, and the upcoming national championship game before welcoming their guest, Dr. Alan Weissenbacher. Dr. Weissenbacher shares insights from his book, 'The Brain Change Program,' exploring the intersection of science and faith, particularly in the context of addiction recovery and personal growth. He emphasizes the importance of neural pathways in shaping behavior and the role of community support in healing. The conversation highlights how scientific understanding aligns with biblical principles, offering hope and practical strategies for life change. In this conversation, Dr. Alan Weissenbacher discusses the complexities of willpower, the power of imagination in brain change, and the importance of spiritual disciplines. He emphasizes that our thoughts and imaginations shape our reality and that positive thinking can lead to significant changes in behavior. The role of the Holy Spirit in guiding these changes is also highlighted, along with practical advice for pastors and leaders on how to support others in their journey of transformation. The discussion concludes with a personal touch, showcasing Dr. Weissenbacher's creative side through his cake-baking tradition with his children.

The Brain Change Program by Dr. Alan Weissenbacher

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Church Talk Podcast
01:39 Weather and Sports Banter
05:11 Introducing Dr. Alan Weissenbacher
06:52 The Intersection of Science and Faith
12:24 Understanding Neural Pathways
18:31 The Importance of Community in Healing
26:16 Science Aligning with Scripture
27:28 The Willpower Dilemma
28:31 Imagination and Brain Change
34:39 Spiritual Disciplines and Brain Paths
42:37 The Role of the Holy Spirit in Change
44:25 Personal Touch: Baking and Connection

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01.964)
Well, welcome everybody to the Church Talk project. This is the Church Talk podcast, which is part of the Church Talk project, and we are so excited that you'd take a few minutes to spend with us today. Rob and I have in the last week not been together as much, and so the chemistry may just be a little off and we're really sorry about that. But you know, I think it'll improve as the day goes on.

Rob Paterson (00:26.11)
you

Jason Allison (00:30.318)
Rob, what's going on in your world today?

Rob Paterson (00:34.824)
today. You know, I'm just thankful. the weather, you know, where we live in Ohio is kind of always schizophrenic, but it seems like it's been more schizophrenic here lately where we'll have 70 degree days last week. there was like a 70 degree day. The next day was my day off and I'm like, I'm going to hop on my motorcycle for the first time of the year. I'm gonna, I'm going to take it to try some barbecue at a place like 25 miles away.

Jason Allison (00:43.527)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (01:02.68)
and it was like a little bit chilly on the bike the next day, you know, it just seems like rain and then today, thank God it's sunny. So, yeah.

Jason Allison (01:11.426)
Yes, but, we woke up to snow on the ground this morning. So.

Rob Paterson (01:14.686)
I did have snow on my deck when I woke up this morning and I was just like, are you kidding me right now? You know, in a couple of weeks, it'll settle in a little bit. It'll be a little bit nicer all the time. It'll be a little warmer all the time. So I don't really mind the transition. It's been cool-ish long enough. I'm ready for spring.

Jason Allison (01:16.878)
I know.

Jason Allison (01:27.405)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (01:39.02)
Yeah, I'm ready to start complaining about how hot it is. Let's. Yes, so hey, tonight is, I mean, we're recording this on on Monday, April 7th, and we've got a guest who's waiting, so I don't want to take too long. But tonight is the big national championship game. And I robbed was your bracket completely busted up after the round 123 where like where did it fall apart?

Rob Paterson (01:41.906)
Yeah, I do. I don't like the hot. So I'm not super excited about complaining about that. But.

Rob Paterson (02:08.318)
You know, as, as a guy who loves sports, watches sports is into sports. I was like addicted to brackets for so long. I, I, I don't know if I'm ashamed to say, or I'm excited to say, or maybe this kind of is a little foreshadowing here. Maybe I engaged in some brain change kind of programming or whatever. And, and I just became a lot more efficient and effective with my life, but I haven't filled out a bracket for a few years. So my bracket never got busted.

Jason Allison (02:36.558)
You are dead to me. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:38.91)
So Jason, you've already told me this off air, but let's talk about who we're hoping to win or who we predicted would win for tonight's game.

Jason Allison (02:51.054)
Yeah. I mean, I, I, and in, in one of the brackets where you fill one out and that's it, you know, uh, I, I had the, the two people playing in the game tonight. That is who I picked to be in the finals. Uh, now because of some other picks, I'm not going to be able to win the whole big whatever, but, uh, that, that pick is in, it's like, I was looking at on ESPN. One of the things I'm in the top 97%, uh, for the bracket. Yeah. Uh, which means I'm just really lucky or I, you know,

Rob Paterson (03:14.813)
Wow.

Jason Allison (03:19.214)
I don't know, cause I'm not that smart, but it was, uh, it was fun. I've got, I picked Florida to actually win. Uh, and they're playing Houston tonight. So I was, I was really sweating the Houston game. Cause when they played Duke, they were behind the entire game up until the last, like what? 12 seconds or something crazy like that. So I was a little worried on that one, but they came through for me. God is good.

Rob Paterson (03:41.47)
Yeah, yeah, that that is hysterical. So you know, if you just told me it was going to be Houston in Florida, I would totally say I want Florida to win that. I'd pick Florida. What a weird year to have all four number ones in the final four and to have the Elite 8B11112223 like, you know, just you don't usually see that there's usually a lot more upsets. But when the team.

Jason Allison (03:59.436)
Yeah, it's crazy.

Rob Paterson (04:06.558)
I know there's a handful of teams I just have always cheered for. There's my favorite team and then there's a handful of teams. And so if my teams aren't playing or they get bumped out or didn't make it to the big dance that year, I really only have one goal and it's for Duke to lose. And so I was literally watching late on Saturday night, that game and the whole game Duke just has it in hand. And I'm just like, I hate this. Right.

Jason Allison (04:23.136)
Yes, me too. That's it.

Rob Paterson (04:35.94)
And at the end and I'm watching it and I'm like, this is a good gift. It's why I God loves me. Duke lost. It was great. Things were as they should be. So that's why I'm cheering for Houston.

Jason Allison (04:42.208)
Exactly. Yes. Well, yeah, growing up. OK, well, you can have that. Growing up in Kentucky, we hated Duke. We hate Christian Leitner. We hate all of them and in all Christian love, right? That's which, you know, speaking of changing my mind and actually being able to love someone, we have a guest with us today who is probably thoroughly confused by our stupidity in this. But that's OK. We have with us.

Rob Paterson (04:58.227)
Yes.

Jason Allison (05:11.746)
Dr. Alan Weissenbacher. And it's interesting, the way I got connected with him was through actually another listener of the podcast, who is also happens to be a friend of mine, but I didn't know he was listening to the podcast. And he told me he was listening and he said, you have got to talk to this guy. went to college together. He's done some phenomenal stuff. He came out with a book called the brain change program.

just last year and I've already gotten it. I bought it. I read it. It's, amazing. every pastor needs to read this. they need to, learn, what, what Dr. Allen Weissenbacher is talking about. and it grows out of experience. Alan served for many years at the Denver rescue mission, as a chaplain for homeless addicts. and so he would work to remove them from the urban setting and empower them in a lot of ways. And, and I've.

read some of the stories and so forth and it was pretty phenomenal. And yet in the process also helped with counseling and spiritual care. So he comes with a pastor's heart in all of us and actually served as a pastor. So, Alan, welcome to the Church Talk podcast. We are so glad you're here.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (06:23.256)
Well, thank you. I'm honored to be here.

Jason Allison (06:25.314)
Yeah, anything I'm just curious like as you think about the last, you know, 15 years of your life and the many things that have happened, you know, and obviously I've got a ton of stuff I could have said that you did or, you know, or part of anything in there that you're like, man, this, if you know this about me, it really helps you understand why I, you know, have studied this or are in part of this.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (06:52.142)
Well, I really want to, I my background is both in science and in the pastor. And I really enjoy bringing the two together in a practical way that I just really wanna help people with life change. When I found myself serving the homeless addicts, it's like the recovery rate is fairly dismal.

And it's like, how can I do better for one? And then how can the church as a whole do better? Helping people change and not just addicts, but anyone seeking life change. And so that's when I would bring in my science studies to say, okay, how has God designed us to learn and grow? And can we line up what we do with that to help people best change their lives?

Rob Paterson (07:48.638)
Yeah, that's that's that's really unique. know, Alan, just maybe beyond that, give people a little bit of context like, you know, where'd you grow up? You know, what's what's important to you? Maybe what what are some of your hobbies? Did you fill out a bracket this year? Let's let our listeners know a little bit about you.

Jason Allison (07:50.094)
Wow.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (08:05.581)
Ha.

Well, I didn't fill out a bracket, so I'll leave it to you two to banter about that. I grew up in California until high school when my parents filled out a newspaper survey that said, match you with your ideal city. They came back and said, Fort Collins, Colorado. So they sold the house and we up and moved. Very whimsical.

And then I went to study biology in college in Illinois. I did great, but I found the lab work boring. If I stayed with it, I would become a mad scientist just out of boredom. So God wanted to spare the world and directed me to being a, to the pastorate. And I found that it just through a series of unusual circumstances was then hired at the Denver rescue mission. Really out of my league.

I hadn't had any big drug or alcohol addictions and so I didn't have the street cred. And so I'd go in, these people would cross their arms and say, what do have to tell me? But as I worked with them, I found out, okay, there's something that I have to offer. And even as our resident psychologist said, hey, if God brought you here to serve, there was someone that only you can reach that none of the rest of us can.

And I took that to heart. And one little testimony that I mentioned in the book is I had one person who came to me from witchcraft and a methamphetamine addiction.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (09:49.999)
and we had intellectual wrestling all the time. But he eventually came to accept Christ. His mental illnesses went away. Kicked meth. And he burned his spell books on Halloween and I baptized him in a river in Colorado. It was cold. We remember that baptism.

Jason Allison (09:55.831)
I bet.

Jason Allison (10:12.694)
Wow. I bet.

Rob Paterson (10:17.288)
Yeah

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (10:18.478)
And now he does tech support for air traffic control computers.

Jason Allison (10:24.408)
Wow.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (10:25.674)
That's probably the most dramatic turnaround that I saw. But stories like that inspire what I do. His brain really changed. And so if I could help him change, how can I help the average person in the pew with whatever they're dealing with? Just wanting to grow closer to Christ, wanting to deal dealing with depression or anxiety, whatever it is, I want to try to help people.

Jason Allison (10:27.811)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (10:33.55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Jason Allison (10:51.938)
Wow. Well, so some of our listeners know, like, so my wife is a psychiatric nurse practitioner, and she's been a psych nurse before that for 25 years. She works with people with psychiatric issues. and, and yet her, much as she, you know, got the nurse practitioner stuff so she can prescribe meds as needed and so forth, her bent is still, I don't want to prescribe meds unless I have to.

And then I only want it to be for the amount of time needed. I really want you to be in therapy. I really want you to, you know, actually work on change. And so hearing what you're talking about, I'm sure the two of you would probably have a way more higher level conversation than Rob and I might bring to the table. But I do think, you know, some of the things that you talk about in the book are, I was just fascinated at how practical they were when it came to simply

you know, my walk with Christ how I'm doing it and like one of the phrases that you use is kind of this idea of I guess neural linking, you know, this idea of the neurons kind of fight, you know, getting together and forming these paths. And yes, I know I'm doing it a terrible disservice in the way I'm describing it to, know, to the person who wrote all this. But I just can you take a minute and maybe talk about that? And what it means to people as they start trying to

you know, change their mind or the way they think about things.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (12:22.894)
I like to describe the brain as a series of highways or paths. And the brain paths you use most often, those neurons are going to become the strongest.

And if it's anger, if you're always angry or reacting in anger, the nerve paths for anger are going to go stronger and wider and bigger until your brain just takes that automatically.

because it's the biggest path.

a pathway for being peaceable, it would be unused, little dirt path overgrown with weeds. Your brain's not gonna wanna take that one. And so that's how I describe the brain. Whatever pathways you use most become the strongest. Or if it's a sin, even if you've been forgiven, why do I still do what I do not want to do? It's biological.

Jason Allison (13:13.304)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:18.718)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (13:25.038)
Thank you.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (13:31.982)
because you have a big pathway for that sin that you're to have to work to decrease and widen something different.

Jason Allison (13:42.286)
And that sounds like a lot of work.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (13:44.274)
It is a lot of work. tell people it is a discipline. It does take work. But as my clients would say, do the work now because you don't want to to do it several years from now when it's even harder.

Jason Allison (13:47.032)
Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (13:55.784)
Sure. Yeah.

Jason Allison (13:55.873)
Good point.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (13:57.491)
And doing the work, the end result is so much better in a healed life.

Rob Paterson (14:06.846)
Hmm. Alan is, as you were saying that the thing that was kind of hitting in my head was that sounds, you know, cause you talk about brain stuff and for your average person, you're like, I, know, I, that's beyond me, you know, but as you were describing that, and I loved, know, how, how accessible just those thoughts were just for the common person. And so it just sounded like, well, Hey, you know, just like people would think physically,

If you work out, right, you do arm exercises, you're gonna tear down those muscles, they'll build back up, they'll get stronger. And if you keep being consistent at that, will get your muscles and upper body strength that you haven't had before. And it sounds like it's really like a very similar way we ought to think about our minds. Like if we do something and create pathways, you know, they're gonna get stronger over time and become easier and more natural.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (14:59.918)
Exactly.

Rob Paterson (15:01.478)
And if we neglect things maybe that have gotten us in trouble, maybe those will get smaller and weeds will grow up and we'll do those things lesser and then not at all. And that'll be a good thing.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (15:11.926)
If you practice the food of the spirit enough, can get those pathways widest and strongest, then that can just become something that's automatic in your everyday life. Because your brain's just taking that automatically. But we have to get there.

Rob Paterson (15:25.906)
Yeah. That's that's so good. Jason, I was thinking when you were when you were kind of surmising what would happen if Alan and Kristen had a talk, you know, maybe they could figure out how to get Kristen's husband off of all the drugs that he's on. Yeah, he's he's his pathways are way too big in all the wrong ways. Yeah.

Jason Allison (15:27.917)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (15:40.814)
Probably not. Yeah. Yeah. I got some big, I got super highways.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (15:45.91)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (15:50.526)
Hey, so Alan, go ahead, Alan.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (15:53.107)
I was going say when I tell my clients to get rid of a super highway, it takes a lot of work. You may have to turn away from a negative thought. We could just use addiction because I preached for years to people on the streets. So that's why I like to just practice speaking. I don't need the technical stuff. so say you resist a sinful thought, you take one brick off the highway and put it on the path.

Rob Paterson (16:00.03)
Mm.

Jason Allison (16:13.283)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (16:23.662)
the good path, but that's one brick. And so I'm like with a client, it's like, okay, you might have to resist an addictive thought 30 times a minute when you start, because your highway is so big, your brain's gonna keep going back to it. But every time you resist, you take one brick and you take another brick. And then maybe you only have to resist two or three times every five minutes.

than maybe only five times an hour because you've moved enough bricks until that superhighway is dismantled. And now, the good one's bigger. And now I take that.

Jason Allison (17:04.193)
Yeah, would you say that you you even though you've you've torn out the superhighway so to speak and you've tried to build a better road that's in the good path is do you find especially I'm thinking with addictions and I would say all of us are addicted to sin in some way like we're going to have a default setting that is going to lead us down a path that we don't want to go. Would you say that even after you know you've established this new pathway?

and it's becoming stronger and stronger. Do people still tend to fall back into the other one more easily than they would say something, sin that they've never done before, never really been tempted by?

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (17:45.455)
That's true. It's still there. It's the pathway is weaker. It hasn't been used, I mean, to use an example of learning to ride a bike, that's taking an unused pathway in your brain for bike riding. And as you practice, it becomes wide and now you can do it without thinking about it. And the same is with the SIM. The pathway is still there. And when I tell people though, if you fail,

And it could be about anything, whether an addiction or whatever issue someone might be facing, even just negativity. Even if you fail, you haven't lost the brain construction work you've already done.

Rob Paterson (18:29.157)
Mm.

Jason Allison (18:29.762)
That's good.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (18:31.042)
You only lose it if you stay in the failure. And then the bricks start falling back and say, okay, your work is still there. You haven't lost it. Just get back on the positive path. And that construction has not been lost.

Jason Allison (18:34.296)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (18:43.662)
Hmm.

And that's, think that is really important for pastors to hear number one, but then for them to share with it, because so many of us, you know, we do something and we fall back into a sin. We fall back into even just a behavior that isn't best. And the first thing we do is say, well, I guess I'm just, you know, that's just who I am. guess I'm just going to be this way. And, and that one failure then begins to define everything for us. And we just slip right back into that pattern.

But hearing it put that way, man, that's just a fresh way of looking at as I'm trying to overcome something or even just establish a new good behavior. Just because I slip back into it doesn't mean I'm done. It just means, OK, so I got one more brick to carry. That's you know, like it's such a I don't know. There's something refreshing about that that I think it breeds hope into people's lives.

Rob Paterson (19:15.966)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (19:41.82)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It me think, you know, as you were saying that, I remember years ago, stopped drinking sugary soft drinks and it was, I don't know, six months, 12 months into the process and I was at a fair with my kids and they, they got a, they got a drink. and it was a big one and they were on a ride and they had me holding this thing. It was a hot day and I'm like, I'm just going to have a sip. And I actually, had a sip of this.

drink that I used to love but hadn't had for months and months and months and months. And the taste of it was like, I didn't like it. It was too sugary. It was too sweet. And I'm like, huh, it's cool how things have changed because I did right things over time. And even, you know, tasting something that I was addicted to at one point, you know, I had really moved past that. And I was really, really thankful for that experience.

Alan, I got a question for you. I just came out of a meeting right before this recording with a guy. And I mean, he's just in a tough spot right now. And this is probably a very typical scenario for a pastor. His marriage is ending. He has divorce papers, you know, and so, and there's just a lot of sadness in that because, you know, he's an older guy. This was like, Hey, we're going to be together till one of us is no more.

And through just a series of events, you know, this is crushing and is really creating a lot of tension for him and difficulty. And so, you know, in a situation like that, where this isn't like a long-term addiction, but there needs to be some mental shifts. He needs to be able to process the grief. He needs to be able to see that there is hope and that there will be a future if he just keeps going in life. You know, how long

Typically, would you say for a person in a scenario like that, that it would take to really get to some different and better mental spaces?

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (21:47.415)
It really depends on the person. You hear a myth out there, you just need to try for 30 days and you make, and a new habit will form. That's a myth because it's different for every person. What kind of brain baggage do you even bring to the table? You have to overcome before you start something positive. And so it could take 30 days. For most of the people I worked with in the rescue mission, it would take one to two years.

Jason Allison (21:56.728)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (22:07.63)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (22:16.162)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (22:17.262)
And new things can keep popping up. But the important thing I would say for someone that's within a grief situation, have healthy, safe people to surround you, to help you process through that grief. Because, and this is the brain linking part, if you have two neurons that fire together, often enough, they link up. Little tangent, for example.

Say someone hurts you and you constantly think of the person's face and you're angry. Next thing you know, the anger neurons and the person's face link up in your brain. And you will always be angry with them because those two different paths are now becoming one path. I call these brain nods. And now this brain nod is formed. It's going to take a while to unlink it. And so how

Rob Paterson (23:08.24)
Interesting.

Jason Allison (23:09.88)
Wow.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (23:16.366)
How do do that if it's anger against somebody? God tells us, pray for your enemies. What does that do? That's, you have a knot, it puts a positive emotion into that knot to begin to weaken it and disconnect.

Rob Paterson (23:31.176)
What if you're kind of concerned that your co-host that you record a podcast with every single week has formed one of those things in their brain when they think about your face and they get angry.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (23:43.311)
Well, first of all, does that help entertaining banter? And if so, just keep going with it. But we have all kinds of links. I mean, for some people, it's a certain date and sadness. I have a riddle in my book that I talk about. We found some addicts that would have a craving every two weeks.

Jason Allison (23:51.758)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (24:10.86)
yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (24:11.822)
And it's like, what in the world is this? They're fine and every two weeks it just hits them. Well, these, and we found out the answer was these were the functional addicts that would get paid every two weeks. And then they'd take that check and get their drug. And even though they're no longer employed, their brain linked up neurons for time with the drug. And so even though they're now sober, still every two weeks, their brain's telling them, hey, isn't it payday? Shouldn't you be going out and getting something?

Jason Allison (24:24.109)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (24:39.214)
Hmm.

Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (24:42.766)
And time to delink that. And it's really interesting for all of us just to think through what kind of links do I have in my brain? Even throw out what kind of things have we linked with the idea of God?

Rob Paterson (24:45.587)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (24:57.818)
Is it? Yeah. What has been my experience with my own dad? And have I linked that concept to God? Positive or negative? And then if it's a negative one, what can I do to de-link this knot that's in my head? Or for this individual you're talking about in a really sad place, if he had supportive people around him, showering him with love and support,

Jason Allison (24:57.922)
That's a good one.

Jason Allison (25:10.68)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (25:26.914)
will be less likely to make negative brain links because he has positive input from others.

Jason Allison (25:30.989)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (25:33.95)
Yeah, that's good.

Jason Allison (25:34.956)
Which is so interesting because I mean, it just kind of verifies a lot of what Jesus taught, right? Like, you know, the New Testament is about being together and, you know, Hebrews says, encourage one another, spur one another on to good deeds. You know, don't forsake getting together. Love one another, build each other. Like all of that stuff is in scripture and it's almost like, you know, 2000 years later, we're, looking at the brain going, wow. That was more than just.

nice practices. There's actually a physiological thing that happens when we are in a community of people who are building us up and caring about us and so forth.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (26:16.258)
I say that science is finally catching up with scripture. It's been there all along. just find, as we study the brain, we realize, wow, a lot of these things that the Bible has said change our brain physically. When it says to renew our mind, this is even biological.

Jason Allison (26:18.892)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (26:31.138)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:34.108)
Mm.

Jason Allison (26:35.148)
Yeah, so have you done any any work with like, you know, you went to Asbury Seminary and I went to the undergrad. So, you know, we have a little link there that was close almost just across the street. But have you done any work with like Jonathan Edwards and some of the stuff that he wrote about with his virtues and vices and some of the stuff he talked about was the best way to overcome a vice is to replace it with a virtue.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (27:02.306)
Yes, I would say that is key. I tell people don't resist, replace. And I talk about in the book, willpower fails. And there's a reason, that's a brain reason for it. If I tell someone, don't think of a pink elephant, what's the first thing that comes to your brain? A pink elephant. I remember.

Jason Allison (27:05.357)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:08.475)
you

Rob Paterson (27:23.442)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (27:25.163)
I think, Alevi.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (27:28.686)
on a school field trip in fifth grade driving through a very sketchy district of San Francisco in the bus. And a teacher stands up and says, I know what's out the window right now. I want you to wipe it from your minds. All the kids' faces are plastered into the window, and I'm still remembering it to this day. It hasn't been wiped. But that's the willpower problem. And why? Because if you are saying, don't use drugs,

Jason Allison (27:47.534)
Hasn't been wiped, has it?

Rob Paterson (27:54.078)
Mm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (27:57.475)
Don't be angry. Don't use alcohol. What are you focusing on? The drugs, the alcohol, the anger. And you're making that pathway bigger.

Rob Paterson (28:05.17)
Yeah, that's so good.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (28:06.486)
And you're actually making it harder on yourself by trying to white knuckle, don't do this, don't do this. You're making it harder on yourself. And so I tell people you need to replace it with something positive. So instead of saying, don't do this, instead, what new thing will I introduce that I can do instead? And that will widen that pathway.

Rob Paterson (28:26.727)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (28:31.622)
Yeah, so good. Alan, one question I've been really excited to to hear your response to is, you you talk about the power of imagination and observation. Also, while emphasizing practice, you know what we do, we've been talking about, you know, so far. So you say this thing, you become what you imagine. Can you unpack that a little bit more?

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (28:54.414)
Well, this was a surprising thing for me in these studies is that your brain cannot tell the difference between doing something for real and just imagining it in terms of how it changes your brain.

Rob Paterson (29:08.702)
Hmm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (29:12.28)
That's huge. And it was like, okay, whatever is true, noble, pure, I need to be thinking of those things. So you do the virtues, not replace, do the virtues, not the vice. But what is my imagination doing? So if Rob imagines all the time reaching over and slapping Jason, that's changing his brain. Even though I won't do it for real.

Jason Allison (29:13.41)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (29:41.199)
But every time you imagine it, a pathway is getting stronger until it might actually become real. Because your brain can't tell the difference. And there may be less legal implications just imagining it, but it's still changing my brain and forming me ever more in that direction. Until that is who I am.

Jason Allison (29:50.264)
Wow.

Jason Allison (30:06.83)
That's huge for pastors to understand because I mean, part of the Sunday morning process, right, is to cast a vision of what you are called to be as a follower of Jesus and then challenging people to practice that even if it's, you know, whether we call it, you know, meditation or we call it just being, you know, in the present moment or whatever, you know, whatever you want to call that process.

but casting that clear vision of what God is, of who God has called you to be, but then giving space for them to actually kind of process it and think about it, that actually lays the groundwork for them to begin doing it in a real way.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (30:52.17)
It begins to change their brain. So you need to cast this vision. You need to be a good storyteller to engage people's imaginations. And so they begin to think of those things themselves or imagine themselves in the Bible stories, doing things right. And then telling them, think about this. You're having a hard time doing it for real? Start imagining yourself doing it.

Rob Paterson (30:52.456)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (30:56.327)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:20.37)
Mm-mm. Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (31:21.71)
I tell my clients, imagine yourself doing sober things.

We had one client was worried about running into an ex-girlfriend on a pass and was worried about falling into temptation. And I just said, okay, imagine doing something positive. And he says, okay, I'm gonna imagine myself over and over again, seeing this person running away.

And he had several successful passes, but eventually he did run into the person in question. And he said, before I could even process it in my mind, my body had turned around and I was a block away. And he said, and that is what my imagination training did for me.

Jason Allison (32:02.094)
Wow.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (32:08.334)
And I didn't fall and I'm back in the program and I returned to the program after my pass and success.

Jason Allison (32:15.0)
Wow.

Rob Paterson (32:15.4)
you know, as you're saying that I'm thinking of how many times you hear of stories of people in ministry, even, you know, who feel like, my marriage isn't great, you know, but I can't, you know, I can't really acknowledge that or, know, whatever the, whatever situation, whatever wounding scars, pain that they've experienced and they don't actually sneak off and do something, but

they start to in their brains escape and imagine doing those things, which eventually leads to their demise, you know, just in the same way that actually going and doing those things right out of the gate would have done, which this is super helpful for that. You know, I, won't do it. I'll just think about it and how that thinking about it is, it can be just as devastating.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (33:02.402)
And that's how I tell people, what's the difference between a temptation and sinning in your thoughts? Because the Bible says certain things you think about it, you're sinning. But that's different than temptation. A temptation happens to everybody. But if you just discard it, okay, that was a temptation resisted. But when you take it as your thought and begin to keep with it so that it forms your character in the direction of that sin, that's why I say that's when it becomes a thought sin, because it's changing who you are.

Rob Paterson (33:07.324)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (33:10.819)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (33:32.622)
As you say, we need to watch what we imagine. Do we imagine ourselves sinning or do we imagine ourselves doing the right thing?

Jason Allison (33:39.372)
Yeah, so you know we man this has been a great conversation and but I realized we got a couple more things I want to hit on before we before we have to wrap it up. You know towards at the end of the book you you lay out kind of the brain change program and you you list you know six steps and I know it's not you know a formula that you're saying just do you know that that that and boom everything's better. Like you said it takes time. It's your your moving bricks from a.

one super highway over to a path to make it into one. And so I don't mean to oversimplify it by stating it that way. Maybe just talk through that process and what it looks like, especially in, you know, through the lens of if these are, if we're in our audience as pastors and church leaders and really just leaders in various fields, what could that look like as they are leading people in their lives?

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (34:39.118)
I also would like to touch a little on spiritual disciplines too. Because if you think in terms of brain paths, if someone really has not been doing spiritual disciplines, it's a little teeny dusty path. And if you're telling them you need to be reading the Bible every day, you need to be praying this long, you're telling them to run a marathon when they haven't even trained in short sprints. And your people are going to fail at it and get discouraged and then not do it.

Rob Paterson (34:42.238)
Mm.

Jason Allison (34:49.464)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (35:06.892)
Yeah, and feel bad about it.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (35:08.526)
Don't feel bad about it. And so if you're to train people thinking in terms of their brain, if think, okay, if their spiritual disciplines are a dusty path, let's encourage them to pray for a few minutes a day and build up. Through the Bible a few minutes a day and build up. Okay, you're not tithing 10%. Can you try 1 % for a few months?

Rob Paterson (35:21.533)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (35:33.967)
And then start to build. Think in terms of training in sports instead of expecting them to run a marathon out the gate. And so I encourage pastors in that way. And then in terms of brain change, first of all, find out what does someone want to change? just tell them, identify your thought. What in your head do you want to be different? And then that you can target change to it.

Jason Allison (35:33.987)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:36.306)
Mm.

Jason Allison (35:39.693)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (35:46.168)
That's good.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (36:04.322)
And you can evaluate it. What all goes into it in this thought? I mean, if I feel bad for sinning, well, I should feel bad. I shouldn't change that thought.

Jason Allison (36:13.198)
Mm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (36:14.318)
That's an important thought. You don't want to change that thought. There's thoughts you do want to change. And so you think about it, evaluate it, what goes into it. And then I tell someone, as I've already mentioned, don't resist, replace.

Jason Allison (36:15.758)
that's the key to this. I knew I was forgetting something. OK.

Rob Paterson (36:16.018)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (36:35.566)
And I can tend to be a negative person. So I have to make sure that I write down when God answers prayer.

Rob Paterson (36:44.318)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (36:44.43)
Mmm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (36:45.9)
and so that I can look and see it. And so instead of when I'm prone to start being negative, let's crack open this journal here. And I'm going to be replacing it by focusing on the positive, not don't be a negative person. And so don't resist, replace, and it'll be unique for whatever thought you're dealing with. You have to figure that out on your own with your pastor or your pastor's direction.

Jason Allison (36:57.347)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (37:03.854)
That's great.

Jason Allison (37:08.376)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (37:15.852)
What can you replace something with that's healthy? What versus can you post all over your bathroom mirror to replace what it is you want to change? And then I talked about brain knots. You figure, okay, is there a knot in my brain where one thing has become associated with another in a way that's not healthy? And then I need to introduce a new element into that. Whether it's anger in someone, I need to start praying for them.

If it's neg-, or in counseling, if you talk about a trauma in a safe atmosphere, you have this event in your past, you have traumatic thoughts, I mean you have the traumatic emotions, they become linked in your brain. If you retell your story in a safe atmosphere, the negative emotions begin to pull away from the story and the positive emotions of a safe atmosphere retelling links into it.

And that's why you have people that say, used to not be able to tell my testimony without fear and being scared and negative emotions. But now I can tell it easily because you've done it enough in a safe atmosphere. You've put a new emotion into that lens.

Rob Paterson (38:27.87)
Mm.

Jason Allison (38:28.482)
Yeah, it's like...

Yeah, it's like, I mean, I've heard people and even in when I've spent any time in counseling or therapy, there is a power in just saying what's going on in a place where I don't, it's not attached to the traumatic feel or the negative, you know, response. And I can, I can recount it and it's, it kind of loses some of its power because it's slow. Now I see why, because it's slowly untangling itself.

Rob Paterson (39:01.182)
Mm.

Jason Allison (39:01.304)
from all the negative emotions and responses.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (39:05.358)
And so, even as a pastor, if someone's telling you their difficult circumstance for the 10th time, instead of being like, dear, not again. It's like, this is part of their brain healing, telling in a safe atmosphere. You can still prompt them to focus on positive stuff, focus on the brain change and how to recover. But just the act of telling in a safe place is helpful for the brain.

Jason Allison (39:17.356)
Ha ha ha ha.

Rob Paterson (39:23.518)
Mm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (39:35.567)
The next step I tell people, keep repeating it. This is a discipline, this isn't an overnight deal. This isn't a quick fix. It's not a microwave my problems away. This is a slow crockpot of change. And there might be failures. But get back, and that's in your brain because you have these big paths. Just get back up, keep moving bricks. Repeat it, repeat it, repeat it. And the more you repeat it,

Jason Allison (39:50.648)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (40:04.482)
the easier it gets. And then I also tell people, retrain in your imagination as another step. If you have a negative thought, start using your imagination to think of a different.

Jason Allison (40:12.227)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (40:19.854)
and then soon that will become the real way. This isn't magically changing the outside with my imagination, it's changing me in my imagination so that I act differently and then my outside world changes.

Rob Paterson (40:19.955)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (40:34.882)
Yeah. But go ahead, Rob.

Rob Paterson (40:35.752)
So good. Alan, I was, no, I was thinking when I was in high school, I was on our varsity volleyball team, men's volleyball team. We were really, really good and had a lot of success and won a lot. But one of the things we would do, cause you know, we lived out in the middle of nowhere. And so everywhere we went to play was usually an hour or longer bus ride, especially if we were going to some of these big tournament kind of things. And so one of the things we would do,

As, we drive, like we would literally all close our eyes and we would mentally visualize like a play. Okay. The balls coming over the net. Oh, I got it. And someone would bump it, you know, and we would literally, you know, basically imagine us out on the court playing. And, and just as you're talking, I'm wondering if that didn't contribute to our success that we had time consistently where we imagined that.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (41:26.573)
It does.

Yeah, people who play sports practice this already in their imagination. People who do sports know this. People in physical therapy are told to imagine yourself successfully walking while they're doing physical therapy for that. And why? Exactly. It's changing your brain in that direction so that you are successful. So yeah, right on, exactly.

Jason Allison (41:33.23)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (41:50.744)
Yeah. Well, let me I'm going to throw throw a curveball or I'm anticipating a question from from leaders, you know, especially from pastors. You're talking a ton about the brain and about neuro pathways and about us doing this work. I guess it's kind of two pronged question. What role does the Holy Spirit play in your processing and the way you're seeing this layout? And then with that?

Do you see a difference between, you know, people are going to say there's your, your heart and your soul and your mind, right? Are those different? And so just working on your mind is actually neglecting your heart or your soul. I I'm just anticipating questions. How do you respond to those type conversations?

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (42:37.272)
God made us as whole people.

and your brain and your emotions are all linked.

You can't have one without the other. We know that scientifically. Even if you say, I'm try to distance myself from my emotions. Even that's being motivated by an emotion. You can't escape from it. And so even though I'm talking about the brain, it's a very spiritual thing. And God can help us. He can bring the people into our lives to help. You need a team for brain change. Don't do it solo.

Jason Allison (43:14.05)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (43:14.344)
Hmm. That's good. That's good.

Jason Allison (43:16.568)
That'll preach.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (43:17.816)
The Holy Spirit can help prompt in the right way. As you're evaluating your thoughts to change, what can I replace it with? Holy Spirit help lead me there. And as our thoughts are being renewed at a biological level, that changes our thought processes, that improves our spiritual life, so it all works together. We don't have to just compartmentalize things off in their little boxes.

Jason Allison (43:20.877)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (43:28.578)
Hmm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (43:47.288)
God has made us a whole. He's made us with thoughts, emotions, our spirit. And so let's get all of it working together for Christ.

Jason Allison (43:52.556)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (43:56.21)
Yeah, so good. Alan, Alan, we so appreciate you and the work you've done in your time today. And one of things I love is, you know, I think all of the ways you've talked about this is so accessible. know, even people like I don't know anything about like brain stuff or whatever. But but my my last question, I think just as for those who are like, yeah, even though it all made sense, I still don't know about all this brain stuff. This guy's just way too smart. I don't

I'm not gonna get the book. I'm not gonna really think about this. So your bio says that you bake cool themed cakes for your kids and that the fire breathing dragon is the current favorite. So obviously you're like a regular dude too. You're not just like this, know, brain change guy. Is there a story behind that whole cake thing? Like how did you get into all that?

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (44:36.589)
Yes.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (44:40.749)
Yes.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (44:45.902)
Okay.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (44:50.222)
Well, when my kids were really little, I have two boys, and the oldest one, when he was two, asked me to make a cake in the shape of a fire truck. I was like, okay, maybe I can do this. I haven't baked before, but when your kid asks you, and please. So I just cut a cake up and stacked it like you would Legos and

Rob Paterson (45:15.838)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (45:20.622)
colored it the right way and it looked good. And then it became a tradition where every year our kids asked for something new, some kind of shape. They tease me, gonna ask you to, I was like, I'm gonna ask for a butterfly hatching out of Saturn. And I was like, no, there's no way I can do that. That's a no. But the fire breathing dragon was asked one year and we made a cake out of, made a shape of a dragon and put M &Ms on for scales.

Jason Allison (45:35.372)
Yeah

Jason Allison (45:51.085)
Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (45:51.523)
I made the boys sort the &Ms. And then we put them on these different colors of stripes. And that was the scales. And we melted Jolly Ranchers. Take aluminum foil, mold it into a shape, melt a Jolly Rancher into that. You get it and then peel off the aluminum foil. You have like stained glass shape. Use that in gingerbread houses, tip. But we made wings.

Jason Allison (45:53.656)
Good call.

Rob Paterson (45:54.067)
Nice.

Jason Allison (46:13.646)
Rob Paterson (46:18.174)
You

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (46:20.59)
and we stuck the wings in there, melted jolly ranchers, and then we put all the candles in the mouth. And so that was was fire breathing, so the candles were all in the mouth. And it's interesting that you bring that up because my youngest's birthday is Wednesday, and he's asked for dolphin and coral reef.

Jason Allison (46:21.132)
Jason Allison (46:30.958)
Ohhhh

Rob Paterson (46:31.332)
Nice. This is so good.

Rob Paterson (46:43.134)
Mmm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (46:44.384)
So after I pick him up from school today, we're going down to Target to the candy aisle and figuring out what kind of things can we make coral with.

Jason Allison (46:53.237)
Nice!

Rob Paterson (46:54.418)
That is so good. So every year on both of your boys birthdays, there's this knot in your brain that causes you to be like, I got to make a cake. I get it. That's cool.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (47:02.786)
Yeah, I gotta make a cake. I'm a little worried what they're gonna ask. Is it gonna be out of my skill zone? They challenge me and I've grown over the years. My pathway has grown bigger in my skill set. I also wanna throw this one out too, even prayer. I tell people when you pray, whether it's for pastor leaders or people in the pews, pray focused on the good answer, not the problem.

Jason Allison (47:20.141)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (47:30.254)
That's good.

Rob Paterson (47:31.198)
Mmm.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (47:33.229)
And it goes back to willpower. you pray focused on the problem, that's gonna dominate your thoughts. That's gonna be your highway. So instead of saying, Lord, keep me away from alcohol, again, I'm thinking about alcohol, pray to the positive result you want, and that'll change your brain in that direction. And then, I mean, it was a solution for me, because sometimes when I pray, I just get stressed out. I just rehearsed 20 problems.

Jason Allison (47:39.982)
Wow.

Jason Allison (47:50.318)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (47:55.917)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (47:59.308)
Yeah.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (48:00.596)
Of course I'm stressed out, even though they say give it to God, I'm still stressed out. But then when I made the change to focus on praying toward the positive, praying forward, not looking backward, that didn't work for Lot's wife, it's not going to work in my prayer either. And prayer life gets back.

Jason Allison (48:02.254)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (48:18.494)
That's good.

Jason Allison (48:18.822)
Yeah, that's good. Well, on that note, I think we can bring this dragon in for a landing. And I really do appreciate Alan, your time and the energy and the work that you put into this. It truly has been beneficial for me and reading it. I'm I really will have a link in the show notes and stuff for people to go purchase the book. But I appreciate the effort that you did and just the thought behind it, because I know

This grew out of experience where you are literally on the front lines of ministry doing things. wasn't just you went off to your ivory tower and wrote some theoretical book. This grew out of practice and I just really appreciate that. So thanks so much for being part of the podcast, Dave. We appreciate it.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (49:00.632)
Thank you, it was an honor to be here and I had fun. So thank you.

Jason Allison (49:05.708)
Yeah, well to all our listeners, thank you so much for another week. The church talk podcast. We do ask you if you have a second to make sure you're subscribed as well as hit the like button and the share button. Share it. This is a positive thing, right? So you can share it with your enemies and it will make you like your enemies better. We're just going to go with that. Hey, have a. The brain.

Dr. Alan Weissenbacher (49:27.15)
the Brain Change Program by the United Nations.

Jason Allison (49:30.146)
There you go, buy it for your enemies so they become better people. Exactly, and then focus on them as better people. And we will focus on making sure something for next week is ready for you. And it's gonna be practical because we exist to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and leaders all over the world. Thanks for being a part of our day.  a great time.