Charles Whitaker - Navigating Ministry in a Divided World

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, Rob & Jason engage in a lively discussion about their experiences in ministry, the challenges of leading in a divided society, and the importance of unity within the church with Pastor Charles Whitaker (River of Life Church, Washington, DC). They explore the impact of political polarization on community dynamics, the significance of diversity, and the role of pastors in fostering healthy relationships among congregants. The conversation also touches on personal anecdotes, including humorous moments related to April Fool's Day, and reflects on the historical context of political division in America. In this conversation, they discuss the current political landscape, particularly focusing on the Democratic Party's shift to the left and its implications for moderate voters. Pastor Charles explores the voting dynamics within the African-American community, emphasizing the importance of social justice issues over single-issue voting like abortion. The discussion then shifts to how church leaders can disciple their congregations amidst political polarization, highlighting the need for relational engagement. Finally, they address the significance of multiple income streams for pastors, particularly in the context of church growth and community impact.

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:03.852)
Welcome everybody back to the church talk podcast. Rob, this is weird because we're in a whole nother state, but we're together recording live.

Yeah, can't, I was probably actually last summer in Indianapolis when Courtney was with us at the ST East conference when we recorded live like together in the same room the last time. I know, wow. That's crazy.

It is, although it's kind of nice not having to be in the same room with you all the time, but that's a different. Although the last three weeks, I think we've been together most of it.

Yeah. I mean, we were together every day last week.

Wow, no wonder I'm in so much therapy right now.

Rob Paterson (00:43.182)
Hey, and so Jason doesn't think our listeners will really care about this, but I do. think they would care. So we actually had a converge mid Atlantic board of overseers meeting, which somehow I got on that group. I think it was a mistake, a clerical error or something like that. But man, like you are starting in a week going to be officially full time.

as the church strengthening director, church health director for Converge Mid-Atlantic.

Yeah, I guess I'm going to have to start doing something now.

You know, funny thing about that is, and again, I love the self-deprecating humor, but, if, those of you who may not really know Jason, or get to sort of see his sort of inner workings, he is traveling all the time, even though you were at like halftime and then maybe three quarter time, right? For a little bit. I mean, you've, you've worked full time to really help and serve the mid Atlantic churches now. Gosh.

for months and a year or more. man, it's so much fun to hear people talk about how you being president, helping facilitate things for them, for their leaders, for their teams has really helped them. And so I'm excited you get to do even more of that. Because I know just a couple of weeks ago, you were up and spent a Saturday with my elders and kind of just facilitated a fueling process. Because we'd just been through a lot of stuff and we just.

Rob Paterson (02:20.398)
You know, needed our spiritual tanks filled back up. So we spent a Saturday with you and you just walked us through a process and it was super helpful.

Well, good. I'm glad this isn't on video because I'm blushing now. But yeah, no, I appreciate it. I'm excited. I really am. I'm looking forward to diving in and just seeing what more we can do on a regional or even national basis, you know, and strengthening churches. And that's why we do this podcast, right? We do it to engage, equip and encourage pastors and leaders because a healthy church needs a healthy pastor.

Yeah, it's certainly not for the buckets of money that this thing pulls in.

Yeah, I mean, that's just extra. that's good. Yeah. As soon as I see those buckets coming in, I'll let you know, Rob.

There's buckets, you know, there's no money in them.

Jason Allison (03:09.022)
Exactly. Exactly. That's the problem.

to catch the water dripping from the leaky.

Yes, yes. Although today we're in an amazing building in Washington DC area. Actually, it's what? Temple Hills or something like that, I think is what it's called. And we have a guest with us. Should we bring him into the conversation or just let him sit there for a while?

No, we, while we're, we're in his awesome space and he's an awesome leader. Yes, man. It's our friend. It's our brother in the Lord, pastor Charles Whitaker. Charles, it's great to be in your space, man.

Let me tell you something, man. You guys are, are ho hoot, man. I just love it, man. The chemistry is great. I just love seeing Jason blush over here. All the folks, all the folks don't see his red face right now. He's just, he's blushing, man. Congratulations. I mean, man, Jason is doing an awesome job, man. He's got a great spirit, great guy relates to everybody and just love you, Jason. Congrats, man.

Jason Allison (04:01.23)
Thank you. appreciate it.

Jason Allison (04:10.766)
Thank All right. Well, we can just wrap it up now. mean, wasn't that the whole point of

Yeah, we

Hold on, did you say it's April the 1st, right?

Yeah,

Aha, sorry Jace.

Jason Allison (04:24.078)
So my grandson's, three year old especially, is really getting into April Fool's Day. Like he's all excited about it and he keeps, he'll like walk over and hand me something and then grab it back and say, gotcha, April Fool's. And I was like, first of all, it's not April Fool's Day yet. And second of all, I didn't want that. So I'm not sure, but he just walks away laughing.

Okay. So this really isn't part of the plan, but I think we need to do this. Does anybody have any great April fools things that either you did or you heard of that are just like, cause let me, I got one to start with. So I remember as a kid, one of my best buddies who lived like a one, one to two minute walk just up the street. And he was, he was young. don't know, 10, 11, 12, something like that. He, and he had another one of our friends over for a sleepover.

go for it.

Rob Paterson (05:14.93)
so when it hit midnight and it was April fools, mom and dad were fast asleep. My buddy ran downstairs from his bedroom yelling mom, dad, the house is on fire. The lights come on. They get up, they're running around like, where like, what's like they're losing their minds. And then he's like April fools. And I, I, is it from a kid's perspective? I thought to myself, wow, how

crazy is that to even have thought of that. And then on the, the other hand, it's a miracle you're still alive. Cause if my kids pulled something like that, was like asleep and woke up to that level of, know, I probably would murder both of them.

Hahaha

Charles Whitaker (05:56.949)
my God, I wouldn't even think about doing it to my parents. My dad would have killed me. You would have never known me in ministry. He was.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I don't really have any good April Fools jokes, mainly because I don't like people doing pranks on me. So I don't do them on people. generally speak, it's kind of doing to others as you would have, you know, Bible stuff, blah, blah, blah.

That's why he's got a full-time job at ConvertX. Got a lot of integrity.

Yeah.

Talking to me, they're not talking to you, huh?

Jason Allison (06:28.91)
That's because you guys are great senior pastors. It's kind of like those who can't, can't teach. Right? So I'm just teaching. Isn't that the way, isn't that the saying? Yes. But anyway, I am, I'm glad you're here. Actually, I'm glad we're here with you. I really appreciate you taking some time. I know you're busy. You've got like a finance meeting in a little bit and

do with the district.

Rob Paterson (06:43.022)
Jason Allison (06:55.554)
probably have to preach 14 times over the weekend and stuff like that. But man, I appreciate the time. I guess maybe start just tell everybody where you're at, what's the church here, and I don't know, keep us dark as secrets and stuff.

Yeah, yeah. Well, hey, it's great to be here. You know, we started a church 24 years ago. We actually celebrating 25 years in January next year. And when we started the church, we planted a church, my wife and I, Cheryl, and we had a really interesting start. You know, we had about 23 people meeting in our house and went from their typical church planting story. And we said that we wanted to be as close to the district line as possible. So when we planted the church, we

started at a location not far from here, then we ended up planting in a place called District Heights, which is only like 15 minutes from here. Stayed there for exactly six months, then moved to Strip Center and was there for 16 years right on the borderline of DC and Maryland where the subway was.

we were here a couple of summers ago, you, drove Bethany and I into that Plaza and showed us that.

Exactly. Well, we were for 16 years. And then the funny story about this, how God works, my wife and I got married in 1986. We live four blocks from where we are now. So God opened up this door for us, a very long story, but opened up the door for us to buy this nine acre site right in the middle of a residential community. Whereas the school used to be another church to own it. And then that got folded up. And then we had an opportunity to put a charter school here. And then we became the landlords. We bought the whole property.

Charles Whitaker (08:32.75)
You know, know, 1986, we were going to another church. This was, this place was a mega church. Matter of fact, Bill Clinton and Janet Reno used to come and visit this location here. Really? the pastor was here. Yeah. And so we ended up, you know, fast forwarding, you know, some 20 years later, here we are now in the same place. It's crazy. And we live four blocks from here. So, yeah. So this is where we are right in the middle, right off the border of South, Southeast Washington, DC. So we're right in the middle of things. So it's pretty cool place.

Yeah, it really is. It really is.

Yeah. And so Charles, you, you saying that there's, there's a couple of things that we sort of were just discussing that we wanted to talk to you about. have a lot of expertise. Jason and I always joke, you know, between the two of us, we've each been in ministry now for about 30 years. So between the two of us, have 60 years of ministry experience. whatever the topic is.

We have a story. We usually have a mistake, you know? So if you stick with it over time, you learn some things, right? You gain some experience, gain some wisdom. So as you mentioned that where we are right now is, was a church, a big church where, you know, Bill Clinton and Janet Reno, visited. one of the things we wanted to talk to you about is, you know, when we think about this part of the country, the whole country is like this, but this part of the country,

in particular really exemplifies the division that takes place. That's occurring maybe, maybe more than in a long time, in our country. And so, you know, what, do you have any, like opening thoughts? We'll kind of have a conversation about this, about what does it look like to be a pastor in a very divided time in a very divided city?

Charles Whitaker (10:12.878)
I think it's very interesting because, you know, the vision happens along so many lines, right? It can happen racially, of course. It can happen economically. It can happen, of course, politically. It can happen just because of cultural difference in thoughts. So Washington, D.C. area is a very diverse, it's a political town, of course. If you talk about it, it really, you know, lies within the context

because most of people here, particularly in our community, are African Americans. This community that we're in is 83%, 84 % African American. Traditionally, most African Americans are Democrats. Some are not. A lot of people lay their weight down because they feel they want things that are just when they feel there's injustice, taking care of needs of people that have in the community. Sometimes they don't see that from the other party.

And then yet you have those who are believers who believe in other things that stand, they feel more closer to biblical standards. So you get a lot of that. And so it's always very interesting how to dance around that with people and to make sure that, you know, if my dad was here, my dad was, he was a staunch.

hater of the Democrats. It was hilarious to watch him have conversations with African-American people about, you guys are not smart at all. You don't even understand history because my father was a history buff. I have decided to be an independent, of course. So I used to be a full fledged Republican, but then I decided, let me just be independent. And then I'll just vote for who I think falls more in line with what I think is going to be good for all people and have obviously some course of biblical standards. But in this town,

People really, you may not see the division as much among African Americans. It's just how you navigate through different races that have different thoughts. That's probably one of the things that you'll see. This is a very influential. Matter of fact, you know, this part of Prince George's County and Prince George's County is the really the wealthiest community of African Americans in the nation. I don't know if you all knew that. So it is. This county has the richest

Charles Whitaker (12:33.582)
African-American population in the country. And a lot of that has to do with because it's federal government, right? And all the contractual jobs and things like that. So it's a pretty neat place. we have other issues that we have to fight for, right? That is pretty interesting in this area.

you felt the divisiveness play out within the context of your ministry?

I think for the most part, most people, know, here's how we try to deal with it in our context of our church. Whatever your convictions are when it comes to your, because this, I mean, obviously most of the division now is happening along party lines, political party lines, right? So you get folks who think about, you know, the white evangelical church way off to the right. you got then of course the real liberals to the

way off to the left. And I think what we've tried to tell our people and in this context is to stand for what is right. Don't worry about it and don't get, and here's what I tell people, don't get upset and draw so much conclusion and so much allegiance to one party or one person. They're to be gone in four years. And why divide ourselves in a body over someone that's probably not going to be there before, maybe eight years.

And we're dividing ourselves so we should have the kingdom agenda. We should make sure that we're promoting the kingdom and promoting unity and what's going to be best for all people.

Rob Paterson (14:05.658)
that's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Charles. and I appreciate this. You and I, were hanging out, just a month or so before the election at a pastor's thing that was here in DC. And, and we were walking around with our spouses, actually in Jason too, in that shopping area before we all had dinner that one night, we were talking about just politics and different people you knew. And one of the things I've always appreciated about you is we've been able to have conversations and it's really true for both of us. really more independent. We're really more.

moderate and we're really willing to vote for someone affiliated with any party or no party based on you know whatever so I really appreciate that. One of the things that you said was you know there's like lots of different kinds of diversity you know there's there's racial diversity that creates tension sometimes there's political diversity sometimes there's socioeconomic diversity. My wife and I

Gosh, forever ago now, 20 years ago, planted a church in Muskegon, Michigan. And it was so interesting to us that there was basically this, the main road that kind of went through town. One side was, 80 whatever percent black. The other side was like 92 % white. one side of the road, the median income was like 80 grand. The other side, was like 20 grand. mean, one road and the difference was that stark.

And so one of the things we felt like God was asking of us is, you know, how dare we tell somebody that God can literally change their eternity, but that he couldn't reconcile them to their neighbor across the street because they were of a different skin color or were in a different tax bracket. And one of the things that we discovered in our, just from our time there, and this was just sort of one slice of the pie. We didn't see a whole lot of division racially.

Like people really didn't care if they were worshiping, you know, with white people or black people. mean, we had also, you know, we had Filipinos, we had all kinds of different, you know, ethnicities who made up our congregation. the, the socioeconomic gap in that community was much bigger, you know, and I think a lot of times, like we had, we had doctors, we had a white doctor. We also had a black doctor and the black doctor in his family.

Rob Paterson (16:27.51)
I mean, they, they constantly, we never put this on them, but they constantly felt pressure because a lot of our congregation, you know, had nothing. were on section eight housing without that. They would have been completely homeless, you know? And so a lot of times when you have people who have resources hanging out with people who don't, they constantly feel just sort of the extra weight of responsibility to do their fair share, sometimes more than their fair share to be able to help. So, you know, when you think about all the different things that divide us,

You know, what would you say is the thing that maybe divides us the most these days?

You know, I think that's a very good question. do think the biggest thing is really, I think the biggest thing really divides us. If you really want to know it, it's just how people can take a stand with a political party. And it happens on both ends to the extreme to where it becomes almost the authority, how they want to live. And that creates the real polarization between us.

And I think that's where we really struggle with it. Because the reality is, is that we have so many issues to deal with, and especially within, you talk about socioeconomic issues. I mean, we have like 1500, mean, whatever the number is, I mean, not 1500, a lot of people coming off of out of prison, having to get back into society. They've served their time. Don't need to be ostracized because once you've served your time,

You should be able to get right back in and be a regular citizen and develop and all that. And so we have to break the shift of paradigms. We got to go through and show love to these people. it was guys or girls, whoever it may be. We have to then have programs and assistance for them. We got to be able to restore those people back. There's always the fight of disparity of housing. That's a big issue that creates a really polarization where people feel like, hey,

Charles Whitaker (18:26.894)
I'm being priced out of the market, know, the gentrification. Look, I grew up in DC. So I go to DC now and I watch and I'm telling you, you can't buy a house in District of Columbia right now. You cannot buy a house in a district alone under $700,000. Now if you buy it, it's because it's not in great shape and then you can fix it up and it's going to be $800,000. And so you have second and third generation people there.

Many times they just need money really bad and they will get an investor to come in and say, hey, you know, I'll give you $300,000 in cash. Not realizing that you just giving away maybe three or $400,000 in equity because you could do what they're doing and flip the house and make money or keep the house, whatever you want to do. So I think that the biggest polarization between us is just the extremity. You know, you got people who just

on the liberal left that just go for everything and it creates a divide. know, whether you support abortion or you support same sex marriage, some people within a certain context, you know, they just bother that because they'd rather go with that than to go with the conservatism that's so much that doesn't help justice-wise. So that creates polarization. Then you got other people who say, no, this is not right. can't, there's no way I can vote for that.

And so the polarization really, think the big one that comes in our community is really these two political parties. I think that creates the biggest polarization that we have.

It's almost like if the left is for something, it doesn't matter if it's good or not, the right has to be against it. then, yeah, and then vice versa. And so when you're doing that, then you create this weird dichotomy that I have to be what my party's for, or I am declared anathema. And then I'm kind of outcast from both parties in that process. I do think some of it...

Rob Paterson (20:09.474)
Vice versa.

Jason Allison (20:29.454)
not that I'm a history expert or a political expert in any way, but I do think some of it has come out of the 60s, 70s, and even into the 80s where there was the hippies and this, you know, and all of a sudden things, simple things like, you know, climate change. Well, it kind of started and was cast as this hippie dippy care about the earth, mother earth, whatever. And so the more conservative Christians, all of a sudden they couldn't even though

you know, biblically taking care of the earth, stewarding what we've been given is a good thing, is, you know, it's glorifying to God because it was associated with these people who did not necessarily follow the same morals. They just all of sudden couldn't be for it, which pushed them into the more conservative political party. And then into the 80s, you in late 70s and 80s, you get the moral majority, you get the right to life stuff and the abortion stuff, right, begins to

divide things because it becomes a voting block. And now all of a sudden we're at a place where a white evangelical is synonymous with a Republican, according to pollsters. Now, I'm not saying every person or anything like that, but I mean, we've become a voting block instead of a kingdom that is representing God. And I'm wondering, I only see it through my eyes. I can't see it through others.

How have you experienced that kind of shift into that polarization, you know, coming from a first of all, in a big city, I don't live in a big city, you know, so you have a more urban setting. Right. And then your your background is way different than mine. How have you seen that play out, you know, within your context?

Yeah, again, so if you look at both parties, I always say this, the four I's that bring a destruction to a nation and in world history, you'll see it, Immorality, injustice, innocent bloodshed and injustice. I an idolater, I'm sorry, four. These four things typically are the downfall of every great power in world history. And when you look at both parties, they are struggling with those four I's.

Jason Allison (22:43.82)
I think we're screwed is the word you're looking for.

So, so what happens is it's to some degree, they almost split like two of the eyes on one side and two of the eyes are extremes on the other side. And so what has happened, you're right. Typically we follow the traditions of our parents and this is what we have been taught to follow. This is the traditions and people stick with them. I think the biggest thing that people struggle with is when we look at

the extremity of people saying, I'm against abortion and I'm against killing innocent babies. then at the outside of it, you don't think about injustice as happening with women or men or minorities, whatever the case may be. they adjust both are diabolical, right? You don't care. So I think it's easy for people to land on one or the other because what's more important to them is their race and their ethnicity and people that they're dealing with.

And I always say to people all the time, this is funny because most people who don't really know all the history, the deep history of some of our leaders, of civic leaders, civil rights leaders rather, Martin Luther King was not a Republican or Democrat. Now most African-Americans think he was a Democrat, right? But he wasn't. And he said, had an issue with both parties. So he was more independent in his thinking. He said, I would vote for whoever I thought was going to be the best.

for humanity and for the citizens of this country. And that's what we have to come down to. And I think the problem we have is that it's too easy to get to the extremes and not be moderate. And I will tell you right now, I blame, well, we say this carefully.

Jason Allison (24:29.346)
We're recording this.

Let me say this carefully. Now, the thing is, is that I just believe that the Democrats right now have a real big issue. Their issue is that they forced their party to push liberalism so far to the left that they forgot that still most Americans are moderate to conservative. And they let the two percenters of people who are very liberal set their agenda. And I think they're now struggling with how to overcome that.

Just say it, Charles. Just say it.

Charles Whitaker (25:02.528)
And so to me, when things happen like same sex marriage being approved under Obama, all the stuff that happened went very liberal. think a lot of people initially voted for Barack Obama because they felt like he was a Christian. He was a smart guy. was in great message of hope. I will tell you, and we all know it, that whites and conservative whites voted for him. He would not have became the president if whites didn't vote for him, not just people who would

staunch Democrats, but he had Republicans voting for him as well. so, but when they switched to that second term, all those people who say, my God, this is the person we voted for. So it goes back to your point. Then they realized I voted this in and I can't, I can't go anywhere close to that again, because that pushes the envelope of memorality. It pushes the innocent bloodshed. can't do this anymore. I can't even get

close to that anymore because I don't want that to happen. this creates much tension, I think, between people. And this is where Christians have to stand for the kingdom, not to stand for a party.

Yeah, that's so good. Hey, so I have a hot seat kind of question before we go to the second topic. I ask you?

I still got stuff on this one too.

Rob Paterson (26:22.67)
All right. Well, but before, before I ask my question, I want to show you this because Jason said he wasn't a political expert, but look at this. I got a picture of him standing. We should put this in the show notes behind the, the press secretary. It's awesome. But it was awesome.

Okay, we will.

Jason Allison (26:40.526)
Yeah, it's not real.

Just because he was in a DC area doesn't mean he got a chance to get the prize. Do you know? Well, you know, we can hook you up, know that. Well, maybe not now, but maybe we could have.

as far as

Rob Paterson (26:56.066)
So Charles, where I come from, where I currently live, you know, probably nine out of 10 people would say something like this. they would say, I always have to vote Republican simply because of the abortion issue. Now it's interesting, right? Because do they care that Republican policy, you know, decimates the planet sometimes? No.

They're not really pro life. They're just anti-abortion, but people would say, no, that's the most important thing. And I could never ever vote for, you know, a Democrat because of that reason. Now you, you mentioned that historically speaking, most African-Americans vote Democrat. Can you just talk about that a little bit? Like, you know, why would, you know, someone who's black and a person of faith lean toward voting Democrats?

Because I think that a lot of them see, while they understand, while many of them understand that abortion is wrong, many of them don't view it the same because they're also looking at their issues that they deal with every day and what people in our culture deal with every day, which is injustice, poverty, lack of education opportunities, discrimination. It still happens, right? They age away. And when they look at a party, I mean, look at what's going on right now.

With the Trump cabinet, he doesn't have hardly any African-Americans in it. What representation does he get from a viewpoint that helps him to understand justice issues? We're looking at so many things that are happening. So to the African-American who struggles with the issues of racial inequality, discrimination, injustice.

they're going to lean more towards that issue than they're going to lean towards an abortion issue. Yes. Because it impacts them. Martin Luther King talks about the, you know, he talks about the magnitude of injustice, you know, that it is not good. And so it's, it's been a problem. So that's one of the reasons why I think we see that leading and people can, because they, again, if I bring up those four eyes, think the four eyes are significant in every one of them are significant to the judgment of a nation.

Charles Whitaker (29:15.694)
Right? Idolatry is bad. Right? So who really pushes idolatry? Right? I mean, that's pushed in greed. In Mammoth. In Mammoth. All of that is a sense of idolatry. Right? And of course, you look at injustice, talked about. Immorality is bad. Innocent blood is bad. So which party is pushing which more? And what affects the person? So I think that a lot of it is that people look at the current situations that we end.

in which is affecting our people.

Yeah. And thank you for, for just giving some insight on that. Cause I think for our listeners, that, that just is really, really insightful and helpful. And I do have like a little kind of jokey comment. Do you mean to say that, you know, most black people wouldn't think that having, Elon Musk is a South African American, you know, would sort of tick the box of representation.

think so. But that's, you know, I can't, I can't. I mean, just on that note too, with Elon Musk and the whole thing, you watch the insensitivity of a person who's a billionaire who does not understand the impact that what he's doing is done in such a broad way. You don't know who you're impacting. Innocent people. I mean, I've got a couple of that church right now. They are struggling under the stress that they both are probationary federal workers.

And they just got these jobs one a year ago, one six months ago, nice jobs in the government. They're 60, like 62 years old. If they get laid off, what are they going to do? I mean, the impact of that.

Jason Allison (30:52.654)
They're not just statistics. That's the thing is when you look at it as a margin of error. Yeah, no, that's those are people

And while we yet know that there's a lot of waste in the government, you have to do it the right way. There's a thing you call effectiveness and efficiency, You can be efficient, but you may not be effective. You may be getting things done right, but you're not doing them the right way. And it's a little bit of laziness because I think really in my perspective on this, it's insensitiveness that they have, but at the same time, is...

It's it's terrible.

I read an article yesterday that said since he kind of, since the election, Elon Musk is actually now worth 125 or 126 billion less. He's only worth like 330 billion now because of how poorly his companies are doing because of all the kind of the backlash. No, mean, poor him. Yeah.

Fork Eye.

Jason Allison (31:51.96)
Yeah, I feel so bad for him. Yeah, let's, yeah. So let me shift this slightly, because here's what I want to ask you. As a pastor in the DC area, metro area, how do you, I don't have a better word, I how do you disciple the people in your church, under your, you know, how do you disciple them in a way

it's really real.

Jason Allison (32:19.522)
that encourages them to move away from the polarization, kind of change the narrative and change the conversation. What are some things you're doing that might help with that?

You know, I've been sharing with our congregation and our leaders too about the four L's of really building great relationship with people, right? You have to sit down and listen to people. And I think that's the problem that we have. We don't want to listen. We tend to have paradigms of what we view, how we view life, but you got to sit down and listen to people. And I think beyond just listening to people, the next thing you're going to learn, you have to learn from each other. You got to learn perspective because everyone has a perspective, right?

And a person who staunch on certain things have a perspective because of how they came up. So you got to learn by listening to people. And I think the other thing that we have to do is in these times we're going to have to lament because we realize that we had bad perspective or we lament because we realize, my God, I didn't realize people went to that. I didn't realize this is that dynamic, that this function, that issues.

that people struggle with and why they are where they are, right? And then we got to love people, right? You got to love them unconditionally and walk with them and stuff. And I really try to build our people to become really highly relational, you know, not just have relationship, but be relational, right? So we're trying to really turn up that in our church. can, if it's one thing we want to do with our disciples is can we turn up the...

the temperature of just being relational people. Spend time with people, walk through the process. Don't make this a project, but let it be a slow, arduous, but watching God do something as we spend time and be patient with each other. And that's across all boards. Are you dealing with an Hispanic person? Are you dealing with a Latino? Are you dealing with an African-American person you don't understand? A hip hop artist? GFC? It don't matter. An Anglo person or it doesn't matter.

Charles Whitaker (34:22.506)
spend time with people and learn with people and what they think.

So real quick for those who are listening in the car, the four L's was listen, learn, lament, love. Those listening in the car, just give you a recap because I've listened to many podcasts in the car and go, man, I wish they'd go back and say those four again.

And Charles, I think part of it, a big part of it for you is just how long you have led this church, you know, that you started that, you know, just how long you've been pouring into these people. you know, I, I told, you know, your folks, this, when I preached here a couple of summers ago,

which you did a great job by the way.

Thank you. but you know, I remember when we were looking for an outside speaker to come in to kick off and then came back and wrapped up our capital campaign that we did starting in 2016. And I had some people in my own mind, but I reached out at the time to Dan Peterson, who was the district guy and said, Hey, do you think so? And so, so, and so he goes, no, no, no, no. You want Charles Whitaker to come into your church and, and you came and people loved you and you did a great job. really,

Rob Paterson (35:31.32)
helped and blessed. And, again, you, you know, I've been here, once by video and once live. I mean, I just think you embody, the, just the, mean, you are not a, know, I'm only in this corner on that side. I mean, I think you do listen and learn and engage well with all kinds of people. And so, you know, a big part of it for all of us is, man, we get ticked off that

Our people are so divided, but sometimes we are so divided. are so opinionated in our preaching, in our posts on social media and our people. could tell them unity, unity, unity, love, love, love all day long. But if they see us modeling something different, they're going to catch more than they, they learn from our teaching.

Yeah, it's no question. I think the more we spend time showing and appreciating different stuff. So I try to do that with our congregation too. I try to bring in different types of speakers, know, I bring in, you know,

Bad ones, bad ones.

Bring them all in. So hey, get a good taste of everything, but different styles. So they can appreciate that, right? Because that's part of the kingdom, understanding that we don't often have to hoop, we don't have to be monotone. We can have a variation because I want people to be able to hear truth no matter what style it comes from, no matter what color of the skin the person. That shows your maturity. Can I hear people no matter whether I...

Charles Whitaker (37:01.378)
can identify totally with them or not. What I do identify is with God's anointing and the truth. And so that's what we want people to understand. So it is good.

Yeah. No. So Jason, when I was here, it's funny, Charles, when he was introducing me, he made a joke about, if Rob starts pooping, you know, like, which I didn't, but I think maybe people were a little bit surprised at the level of energy that I did have.

Yeah, you definitely bring energy. nothing else, because I mean, we had to at press a little over a year ago and you bring energy, which is good. And I mean that as a compliment.

You what I love? You know what I really love about the different worship styles and experience from different culture experiences. We always hear from our white brothers and we love the black church because you've got so much energy, man. It's so energetic and powerful, And then I was like, man, I love y'all's worship because it's so reverential. It's so theologically tight about God and perspective. So that's the appreciation.

we should have.

Rob Paterson (38:06.862)
You should bring that same thing to politics, to race, to socioeconomic issues. Exactly. You know, there's beauty everywhere and there's wisdom everywhere and there's God everywhere. Yes.

That that'll preach.

All right. We really I don't know that we have time for. Yeah.

don't think we do. guess we'll just have to interview him again sometime. Yeah.

man, I'm so bad. I just love this man. Can we go for another hour?

Rob Paterson (38:37.002)
Well, you know, I mean, maybe we, maybe we could just like chum the waters a little bit here. We do have a few minutes left. you know, Charles, I, we were thinking about this because, know, you, you're a full-time pastor, church pledge or pastor, man, and you're a great connector. know the, your lead team of pastors kind of in this area has grown in part because of just your connections and your sphere of influence, which has been really fun to see and watch.

You also do some stuff with real estate, right? You're a realtor. Sell some houses. That's the overarching.

I thought mogul was the

Okay, okay.

Jason Allison (39:21.176)
Good.

And, and, and, know, I think, you know, at least how I see this, I, I have a lot of friends who pastor small churches, friends who are white, pastor and small Anglo churches. And there just seems to be sort of this point of pride, like I gotta be bivocational because my church doesn't have any money. like, so we're doing this godly thing and all you people who compromise and, know, have smoke machines and stuff, you know, that don't really love Jesus.

You know, there's sort of that thing. And even in, in the Anglo church, you know, there's lots of people. And I, I remember even hearing a family member who was on a church board at one point, make a comment like, well, you know, the pastor's, wife gets health insurance. And so they, they took that health insurance money and just gave it to him as salary. Like that's a waste of money. Like they shouldn't have done that, you know? So there's almost this, if you have other streams of income, the church should then pay you less not.

compensate you adequately for what you do. I think in the black church, man, there's just more of a attitude of generosity. Like we really want to honor and bless and look after. And so, you know, maybe just kind of give us like an intro for our next conversation about, know, as somebody who does, has cultivated multiple streams of income, you know, why is that important for pastors and people in ministry?

Well, let's start first. I think in African-American culture of churches, the pastor has always been looked to as the leader, you know, someone who they look up to, they know they get their spiritual nurture from, he's there for their family. He's just that's an honorable position and for the wife, because we use the term First Lady or Lady of the Church, because they just in the tradition is that we want leaders to be honored.

Charles Whitaker (41:08.598)
Most churches do a very good job of honoring pastors. Now, some people go overboard and it gets extreme, but I think when it's honorable, it's right, and I think everybody should honor, whether you're white pastor, black pastor, Hispanic pastor, churches need to honor because the Bible says give honors to honors too. Now, we have to figure out that balance, right? But I think that one of the things that has been, I think, a very good thing, and we can see it, is when you...

can be multi-streamed as a pastor. If you've got a small church, can't see that the church can't fund it all yourself, and you have abilities to lead effectively and empower people and still be able to work and make income so the church could grow to that point, great. Maybe when the church does grow to that point, you have your full time. You still may want to multi-stream just because of your family's dynamic, because of certain goals you have.

For me, I do real estate. I do both commercial and residential real estate. I did property management. Of course, I sit on all kinds of boards, but I do that because it helped me to learn. Matter of fact, it helped me position us as a church to be where we are today. Because when I was dealing with all these guys, when we were on the other location, I became a property manager. The Lord said, I want you to get your real estate license. First, my wife got hers.

And then he said, I want you because I want you to know what you're dealing with so I can help position the church. So it gave me knowledge. So when we stepped into this venture of how we got this church, which I can tell you right now, we negotiated this church and got it for $2.8 million and it was valued at $6.1 million. You stole it. It may look like that, but no, a favorable deal.

Charles Whitaker (42:59.15)
So, God positioned me with that knowledge to be able to do that. He didn't have a school, which is our public charter school, which is funded by the government to be our tenant. It's the mortgage. Exactly. It covers the mortgage of our church. It's incredible. I mean, I couldn't think this up myself, but the Lord did that. But again, that came out of experience of being a real estate agent and helped his positions to do that.

Yeah. And that covers the mortgage, right?

Charles Whitaker (43:27.982)
So I do think that pastors who come out of corporate America, pastors who are doing multiple things, I don't think there's anything wrong with it all. I think you use your skill of empowerment and leadership development, you can do it very effectively. Matter of fact, the new planting church model, I did a seminar on this a few years ago, about five years ago, at a Converged Conference, talking about the new pattern for church planters. One of those new patterns is people who are called by God.

who come out of corporate America or management, they can be very good church planners by vocational. can still do what they do and still grow a healthy church.

And, and I mean, even for, for pastors in general, mean, for church planters, even more so in a lot of senses, they always say, you know, like, you gotta have relationships. mean, know who the mayor is know who like owns and runs the grocery stores and whatever, like make those connections. And so, you know, for people who are out in the marketplace, rubbing shoulders with those people, those connections can be used for the purposes, whether it's like your story or just relationships.

with people who are far from God, who just might need some care for their soul. It helps them see.

I know too many pastors who don't know any unsaved people.

Rob Paterson (44:46.158)
They're like monks. They in their office and... Yeah, it's a rail.

only

deal with Christians and that's fine for a while, but you've got to be out there if you're going to ever teach anyone else how to share their faith, how to be out there, then you've got to be doing.

You've to be intentional. You've got to make relationships. One of the great things the Lord has blessed me with, I think, is the ability to network with a lot of people. A little short story, I know our time is up, but a little short story. When we were in the process of transitioning to sell the plaza, were a guy by name of Dennis Bakke and Eileen Bakke. We billionaire, Christian billionaires. He was worth $3.4 billion. So when he came in, we partnered together and said, hey, we're going to develop this plaza. said, hey,

Charles, I'm going to we're going to put houses here. We're to put church here. We're to do this and this and that. I got a development team that can do this thing. And so the development team was smart guys. mean, brilliant guys, all of believers, good guys. they and they like. Bocke's like, well, Charles, they are smart. They know everything, you know, just let them handle it. And they said, no, Dennis, we want him because this guy knows everybody in the community. Right. So I use my capital. They had money capital, but I had relational capital.

Charles Whitaker (45:59.47)
I got them in front of all the county executive people, county council people, and they were like, oh my God, he opened up so many doors for us. So that again, is such a point. It is a great thing that you can still be working in the corporate and rubbing shoulders with people because it's all about advancing the kingdom of God.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. Well, Charles, we really do appreciate your time and your friendship over the years. we just, Rob and I both value that friendship so much and I just love hanging out with you every chance we get and in a, in about a month or so when we come back and we're going to be playing your golf out here. Yeah. Can't wait to.

You guys are coming up. Hey, we want y'all to come in. We looking for your boys that come to the golf tournament. Well, we're just just be careful. Hey, just be careful. The brothers. I hope they let you get out the parking lot with the crystal trophies.

It won't fit on the plane. Well, we do appreciate it. And to our listeners, if you want to reach out to Charles and ask any further questions or find out more, just reach out to us and we'll connect you. That's not a problem. He's definitely a person worth knowing on so many levels. And we do appreciate you, our listeners. We would love to hear from you. Anything from your favorite April Fool's Day joke to...

to ways that you've been present in the community or how you've dealt with the divisiveness of our times and maybe something that worked or maybe something that didn't work and what you learned from it. We appreciate you and we just hope you have an amazing week. We will see you next week.

Rob Paterson (47:36.056)
Thanks for joining us today at the Church Talk Podcast. We hope the conversation encouraged and challenged you. We would love to hear from you. Email your questions or comments to jason at churchtalkproject.com. The Church Talk Podcast with Rob and Jason is brought to you by the Church Talk Project. We work to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and church leaders around the world. Thanks for listening.