Jason & Rob Talk Shop

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Jason Allison and Rob Paterson reflect on their experiences as pastors, discussing the importance of sensitivity to God's spirit, finding one's identity in ministry, and the significance of leadership learning. They emphasize the need for relational connections within church teams and the importance of empowering others in ministry. The conversation also touches on discernment in leadership and the value of authenticity in ministry roles.

Chapters

00:00 Welcome Back to the Roots
02:44 Learning from Experience
05:17 Hearing from God
08:10 Identity in Ministry
10:50 Leading Leaders
13:39 Building Relationships in Leadership
21:03 Embracing Collaborative Leadership
23:01 The Struggle of Leadership Identity
23:53 Discernment in Leadership
25:07 Understanding Team Dynamics
27:43 Building Systemic Pauses
30:02 Empowering Others in Ministry
33:29 Authenticity in Leadership
42:01 New Chapter

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the church talk podcast. You know, today you get just it's it's old school. It's just Rob and me. That's it. That's right. That's right. And we are we are even we're going back to some of our roots like we're going to we're going to work through several different segments where we just talk about stuff and life and being a pastor and

Rob Paterson (00:13)
OG, baby.

Jason Allison (00:30)
what that means and what it doesn't mean and how we probably screwed it up multiple times, but what we learned from it. So Rob, man, I've been excited about this. I know that's kind of cheesy and silly, but man, I've been excited just to sit down and talk shop for a while.

Rob Paterson (00:36)
Hmm.

Yeah, me too. You know, and it's, it's one of those things where everything is everything has purpose, everything has meaning. Everything is enjoyable in different ways. You know, I mean, I love Courtney. Her voice is awesome. We've had some incredible guests over the last get, I guess we're coming in on three years now, aren't we? Is that true? Am I making that up or is it too? I don't, I don't remember.

Jason Allison (01:08)
Wow. No, think it's no,

it's it's I can't do that much math. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. End of July, 1st of August.

Rob Paterson (01:14)
Like this summer later, this coming summer is three years that we've been doing the podcast.

Yeah. Well, we started before that. We just wanted to make sure we had enough episodes before we started that we didn't, you know, get ourselves in trouble if we couldn't record. Now, now we're giving all the magic away.

Jason Allison (01:28)
Right.

Yeah,

we just went live at the end of July.

Rob Paterson (01:37)
Yeah. so, you know, but with, with all those things with guests and, multiple hosts and all those things, I tell you, you know, I mean, it just takes more coordination, more, more practice, more time together, all that kind of stuff. And, yeah. So anytime you and I have an opportunity, just, to sort of return to the OG it's fun. And, and I love it.

Jason Allison (02:03)
Right. Yeah.

Well, and just for those of you listening, just kind of get it out there. Courtney is taking a brief, I guess, sabbatical is what we might call it. She is in the midst of applying for some PhD program stuff, and she needed a you know, a couple of months to get that settled and done. And so if you don't hear her voice, it's not because we fired her or we got mad at her or she got mad at us. She asked if she could have.

Rob Paterson (02:31)
Although that's way more

likely.

Jason Allison (02:33)
Well, as far as everyone out there knows, she, our, our official stance is, she's, she's applying to a PhD program, which I think is, wonderful for her. No, she'll, she'll probably be back. It's just, you know, she's taken some time off, which is great. so, Hey, we're up. today, I wanted to start with our, our, our first segment. I guess we could call it. We need to come up with some really cool names for these and.

Rob Paterson (02:36)
Yeah.

Ha

Jason Allison (03:02)
Maybe we will over time or maybe we'll totally change again. You never know. But first segment to me is in the moment, like right now where you're at. I'm just curious, what are you as a pastor of a growing church in a small town in the middle of Ohio? What are you learning that you think would be something people could probably connect with or maybe need to learn?

Rob Paterson (03:22)
Mmm.

Yeah. So, you know, as I, as I think about this question, and quite honestly, probably nine times out of 10, if you were to ask me that, like on the spur of the moment, without any forethought, I might be like, how to survive, you know, like, I mean, I don't really have an answer. I'll make something up cause I'm a pastor and I can make it sound good once I start talking or whatever.

Jason Allison (03:45)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (03:53)
But I actually have a really good answer right now and it's fresh because this I had an experience yesterday that kind of was really close to the bullseye of this. But let me let me let me start with a story. So. Who Pete Greg, who is really big in the prayer movement, kind of going on around the world and just a great, great minister, great pastor, great thinker.

Jason Allison (04:07)
Story time with Rob.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (04:21)
highly recommend him. spoke at exponential years ago and told this story and it's just it's just stuck with me ever since. So, you know, we were actually practicing hearing from God, like, just being open and quiet and sensitive to the spirit of God, like how the spirit may lead. And he told this story of back when he was, you know, in high school, he he had only been a Christian for a short time and

He was praying one day and he felt like God was saying hey hop in your car your parents car Whatever it was at that time, right? And I want you to drive to this this diners restaurant. That's like ten miles away I have something for you to do and he really sensed that God was saying that to him So he he hopped in the car and he drove to this place and he went in and as you as one would do in England he ordered a cup of tea and And he sat there just waiting for whatever whoever, you know was gonna come along that God, know had for him

And, and he said, and I was there for 30 minutes, an hour, nothing happened. And I went home. He said, but what if in the halls of heaven, God, the father is like looking down and he's like, Jesus, Jesus, come here, you know, and he's like, what is happening in this diner in England? And, and Jesus is like, yeah, he thinks that we sent him there and God's kind of like, huh.

Interesting. And, and, and, and he's like, did you send him there? Jesus is like, no. he's like, didn't, God's like, didn't send him there. And he's like, he, Jesus is like, yeah, he think, you know, the Holy spirit, he, hey, spirit spirit, you know, and, and, and, know, okay. So he misheard as a teenager, but from the halls of heaven, God looks down and he says, that is the kind of life we can do something with.

Jason Allison (06:17)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (06:18)
somebody

who believes they've heard from God and is willing to act and to live in response to that. And so I would, I just use that to say two things. One, God for a number of years has been teaching me patience. I'm not naturally a very patient person, especially when I feel like I have heard from God. want to kind of move and go and yep.

Jason Allison (06:26)
Yeah.

Let's do it. Yeah. You're a man

of action, Rob.

Rob Paterson (06:43)
Although I, the older I get, the more that is tempered just from my, you know, my energy diminishment. But the other thing that, that, which that's that story speaks directly to is just sensitivity to God's spirit, you know, as opposed to here are the, the best practices, the steps, the rules, the metrics, you know, like I really, really, really care deeply about hearing from God.

and and and you know however he wants to speak in the moment so yesterday at church it was very interesting there's a guy i know him really well we've been friends gosh for probably 13 years plus now and his family attended my church for a long time and then he's had multiple he served in the military he was deployed multiple times that took a toll and for the last six months or so his family's been back

And, and it's been really cool just to sort of reconnect weekly in that way. And yesterday while I was preaching, man, I just, and he was sitting off in this section of my church. and it's, you know, our, don't have natural light streaming in, you know, we have more of a contemporary controlled environment. And, but so, you know, it's not like I can see him crystal clear, but literally I just had this sense.

like emanating from his direction. And I use these terms and I tell the story and some of you are like, we didn't know Rob was one of those kind of kooky charismatic types. I'm really not. I mean, I am a little charismatic, but I don't even approach the kooky line. We might get canceled for this episode, Jason. It's kind of, we are returning to our roots, right? It just felt heavy.

Jason Allison (08:19)
No, you're not. You are.

You

Mm. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (08:37)
coming from his

direction. actually between gatherings, I just sent him a text and I just said, Hey, I said, I love you, man. I said, I could be totally wrong. I could totally have missed this, but it just felt like you were carrying the weight of the world on your shoulders this morning. And you know, I love you. And if you need anything, I'm here. And, and he, after the second gathering, he had responded and he said, no, you felt a hundred percent right.

Jason Allison (08:58)
Mm, it's good.

Wow.

Rob Paterson (09:06)
And he said, I love you too. And

so again, I don't know, you know, if that mattered, if that moved the needle, if it, if it helped him just knowing that somebody else is in the loop on whatever's going on. That's just creating weight stress in his life. but you know, the fact that in a, in a dimly lit room, I felt something

Jason Allison (09:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (09:32)
which

is not necessarily a typical thing. It's not like all the time I'm just like, you know, but I just had this strong sense and I followed up on it and it, just so happened to be, you know, the bullseye. So yeah, I mean,

Jason Allison (09:40)
Yeah.

Yeah. No,

I love that. That's yeah. And I do think we as pastors, especially when you're the lead pastor who's getting up in front, you know, you I remember standing in front of the in front of this audience. Right. And, you know, and this audience could vary from seventy five people to, you know, a thousand, depending on, you know, what time of my ministry you're talking about. And I remember thinking at one time,

looking out over the crowd going, I know that story. I know that story. I know that story. And, know, and, and just realizing what is it like to actually, pastor those people, you know, and, what is it like to be open to what the spirit is leading? Cause let's be honest without the spirit leading us, we're terrible pastors. Like, mean, you know what I'm saying? Like that, that's just, there's something about being open and obedient to, the

Rob Paterson (10:38)
Yes.

Jason Allison (10:42)
leading of the spirit. For me, it's a little bit of a similar vein. What I've been really learning is, a couple months ago, I don't remember how long ago, but we had Danny Parmalion and he talked about his 360 self-aware. Actually, took him up on it and I went through it and I just got my results a little bit ago. First of all, I have figured out I am extremely

Defensive of myself. Like I don't want to actually, I say I want to learn about myself, but then when I see stuff, I'm like, no, that's not true. Nope. And I just write it off and I'm like, wait a minute, that's the wrong way to approach this. You know, so I went back through it a second time and I, you know, I even talked to you and said, Hey, I need to sit down with you and work through it so that I actually hear what it's saying and not what I want it to say. but so, but what I'm learning about myself in this is

Rob Paterson (11:17)
I don't want to act like I say I want to learn about myself. But then when I do stuff, I'm like, no, that's not the milk type. write about, wait a minute, that's the wrong way to approach this. So I went back to it. And I talked to you. But hey, I need to sit down with you and work with you. And I agree with you about saying what I wanted to say. But what I'm learning about myself.

Jason Allison (11:42)
that I have found my identity in my ministry and not in Christ. And I was reading the book Lead by Paul David Tripp, he says that in one of the lines. also talks about how basically if we're doing that, then we're not actually sharing Christ then with people. so that's been working on me lately of, hey,

Rob Paterson (11:44)
Hmm.

And so that's been working on the way, if I

Jason Allison (12:12)
If I truly found my identity in what Jesus says about me, would that change the way I interact with people, the way I work with other pastors, all my stuff? And that's just really got me thinking and processing. So that's what I'm learning right now in the

Rob Paterson (12:13)
truly found my identity, would that be the way I interact, the way I work with other pastors, way I use all my stuff, and that's really gotten me thinking and processing. So that's kind of what I'm learning right now.

Jason Allison (12:33)
midst of life and ministry.

Rob Paterson (12:36)
Yeah, that Jason, that is so good. and this, I actually, I think these things tie together a little bit, just because as you were sharing that, again, I was thinking about external tools, skills, competencies, versus deep soul work, where we are building, you know, our relationship with God, where we are building our sense.

to being able to hear from God. So I was in a meeting last week and somebody shared something that they had thought they observed that was a potential issue and it was the right setting. And there was somebody around the table who was responsible for that stuff. Who's like, I mean, and I was sitting there watching and I was watching their face and they were just like, you know, like their face was contorting a little bit and they're like,

That's completely not true. Here's the truth, you know, and so what you heard or and or perceived and or whatever was wrong, you know, but whatever. And there were two or three sort of moments in this sharing where it was just it. It felt a little. It wasn't tense in the room. Nobody was mad at anybody, but it was just. And I remember in my head thinking. If somebody was coming at me with some ooh, this could have worked betters.

for an area I was responsible with and they, and they didn't know what they were talking about. I would feel that tension inside, but my face would not betray me. Like I would, I would be kind and generous and I would smile and I would, I would talk in a non sort of pointed way where the person who this was true in the room, they, they did not do that. Well, later on that night, this person who was sharing

Jason Allison (14:14)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:30)
send a text, Hey, I'm really sorry for bringing stuff up and kind of missing the mark. And, and then the other person responded, no, no, like, no safe space. This is a safe space you can share. And I'm like, you say that. And I even know you mean it. It's your heart, but your face didn't make it a safe space. Like the only reason this person res the share, like said this in the text thread was because of how you in the moment, probably not even knowing like responded and

Jason Allison (14:45)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:59)
And so like in my head, I think to myself, well, I'm better at that because even though I would feel the exact same thing, I on the outside, I'm more polished. I figured out the sort of soft skills in order to sort of pull a situation like that off and make people feel safe. But that's that's still not the goal. The goal isn't to be able to do that on the outside. The goal is to be changed on the inside so that I have.

Jason Allison (15:08)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (15:28)
humility and sensitivity and openness that maybe I don't yet.

Jason Allison (15:35)
Yeah, no, that's good. That's good. I, yes, I just affirm everything you just said. I don't want to even add to it. Yeah. And take an offering. Well, so our next little segment that I wanted to, uh, to touch on, and this is maybe is the, the central part of, what we do. Uh, it is what I'm just calling it leadership learning.

Rob Paterson (15:42)
Let's pray.

Jason Allison (16:02)
you know, what are, what are you learning? What am I learning? What, are we learning when it comes to being a leader in, you know, basically in God's church and in what God is doing. And for some strange reason, he has called us to be leaders. so hopefully, I mean, and I've heard this said for decades, you know, every leader is a learner. and so if you're not learning, you're not really leading well, or you've reached a capacity and, you know, a ceiling.

And so, and you and I have been talking about some stuff, you know, that has nothing to with the podcast per se. It's more about leading and your elders and leading that, you know, just the way you lead and how you really try to pour into your elders and your leaders in your church. And so I thought it'd be fun just to talk about that for a minute for a little bit about, you know, the way you approach leading leaders, because that's definitely one of those things that

I think is, I really think it's one of the weaknesses that most pastors have is leading leaders. it comes, we're not trained to do that. We're trained to exegete scripture. We're trained to preach and organize some things, but nobody really talks about what it means to lead leaders. And so I'm just curious, as we think through, what does it mean to you when I say, how are you leading your team?

Rob Paterson (17:11)
and

Jason Allison (17:30)
And by that, mean your staff and or your board. Maybe it's if someone out there listening, maybe it's a ministry team that they lead or maybe it's a church, you whatever it is. What are some things you try to keep your finger on the pulse of when it comes to leading the team that you're in charge of?

Rob Paterson (17:51)
Jason, that's so good. And, you know, I wish that I could say that, you know, I'm just, you know, naturally gifted at all things like leading.

Now there are things that I am good at which which one of those is like building culture, you know. And so just you know relationships, quick relationships, building deep relationships, time together. You know is something that I'm good at and so you know hey let's let's do this event or let's go grab some wings or you know hey let's let's watch this game together. Everybody's welcome over.

hey, I'm making some food. Actually, my kitchen's behind me and it's a good thing that like, it's like most of it's kind of hidden behind my shoulder because we had small group last night and I made like a quadruple order of beef and snow peas. cause we had it like a Chinese theme for our meal last night and my, so my kitchen is absolutely exploded right now, but you know, just life together, food together, interacting in ways that matter. Like I'm good at that, but

Jason Allison (18:47)
you

Rob Paterson (19:00)
One of the things that a friend of the podcast, Derek Sanford once said in a workshop I attended, he did, and it was about preaching as he talked about like a constant diet. Like you want to have, you you have, have to have a well balanced, well rounded diet. You can't just eat one thing, you know, and hope that it works well, unless that one thing is kale, then maybe it works. But, and

Jason Allison (19:24)
No, even that doesn't.

Rob Paterson (19:27)
But you know, so he was talking about like, hey, the one of the reasons he goes away and plans and then has a team of people help is because they want to make sure, hey, every year we're going through a book of the Bible every year we're hitting some topics that maybe our community or our culture is just in desperate need of some godly wisdom on, you know, like, we're making sure we're declaring some things like just lots and lots of different.

We don't want to have one way we teach about one specific kind of thing. We want to make sure throughout the year, everybody's getting a balanced diet. And so over decades now, I have tried to just incorporate things like so in my staff meeting, we pray every week in our monthly elders meeting, we pray, we talk about prayer requests and praises, we pray together. So that's like a constant thing.

with my staff in particular, you know, we're almost always at least a couple times a year reading through a book together. And one of those books is always some kind of learning where we're not only learning about ourselves, but we're also learning about each other. So we're getting greater understanding of how we fit together as a team. So we read, what's the Lencioni book that we've talked about?

Jason Allison (20:32)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

the six working geniuses or the,

Rob Paterson (20:53)
Yeah, we did the six

working geniuses together. We did the Enneagram together. We just finished doing Erwin McManus's the seven frequencies of communication together. So, you know, and these are just those three we did in the last three years. So we're always learning, growing together. And then I think the big one is just we're around each other enough to know how each other's doing.

Jason Allison (21:03)
yeah. Yep.

Right.

Rob Paterson (21:20)
You know, and so we don't just care about the cog in the machine, ministry function responsibilities that we're a part of. But, but you know, when somebody is sideways, like we push all that stuff. Now we can't do this every week. We can't do it all the time, which thankfully everybody's healthy enough to not need to do it all the time. But you know, the, those, those times during the year where somebody for any number of reasons is just in a tough spot.

We'll push everything else to the side just to sort of listen and love and care and pray for them. And I just think that builds in like a depth of, of, you know, resilience and longevity when you actually care for people along the way.

Jason Allison (21:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, so you, mean, just kind of summarizing that in a way, you're basically saying you use relational connections to help in creating space for those relational connections to take place, not just between you and any given staff member, but among the staff so that people can be aware of what's going on in each other's lives. Because someone else in the room,

you know, knowing your staff, know, Shelley is, going to be a little more in tune with certain aspects of life than you or Bud might. And, and Jeremy might be in tune with, you know, something that you get, you know, just like, because you guys are all different, which is great. You know, you can create that space where you can engage in different ways. And so I love that. And there's you as a leader have to be.

Rob Paterson (22:49)
Yep.

Jason Allison (23:01)
secure enough and confident enough in your own leadership to allow that space for that to happen. that's where I think a lot of pastors get scared of

Rob Paterson (23:13)
And you know, I would say and I would that was like actually the next thing is you were talking that was on my mind and you said that I think things changed for me and actually improved drastically when I didn't feel like I needed to walk into every meeting.

Like as the expert fully prepared to like, you know, lead the ship, take charge, let everybody know how it was going to be. and so, especially with those meetings that are, that are frequent and recurring, you know, there are weeks where I walk in and I have, you know, three or four now we have kind of, you know, even like the podcast, there's segments, right? Like we know, Rob, Rob probably is going to talk first in staff meeting.

We always end in prayer. Shelly, you know, has the list of other things we need to talk about that anybody else can sort of sort of pepper in. Elders meetings. Again, we have similar buckets every month that we sort of we start with prayer and praise. We do a board training together. You know, we do like lots of things like that. But, you know, everyone is is fully welcome.

Jason Allison (24:20)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (24:27)
And so when it's not like this tightly run ship, but more, Hey, these are trusted wise people. And you know, you get to help co-create this, this meeting, this time together, this experience. yeah, like it, it's just so much better. So much more comes out of it. We actually come to way better outcomes on a lot of things because it's not just me casting vision, everyone going, you're great. Cause they don't want to like,

Jason Allison (24:38)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:57)
you know, throw stones at like the thing Rob is obviously a hundred percent committed to. when we can sort of, when you can create more collaborative space, I think it, it, it's better.

Jason Allison (25:02)
Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and yes, I agree. And part of the struggle that a lot of pastors and maybe I'm just projecting my own struggles. But a lot of the struggle is, you you want to make sure that you're there as the leader and that you justify your existence by having the answers, by having the, you know, the vision, by knowing how to do whatever, you know, needs to be done next. And that's kind of where I'm

what my learning and who I am in Christ and how that is beyond my identity as a ministry leader, as a pastor, a whatever. That's where that comes into play. Just trusting that God is actually the one leading and that our job then is to be in tune with the Spirit, which is kind what you were talking about even as we started the conversation earlier about what does it look like to be in tune?

the with that. Do you have any anything like where you? You know, the discernment process is different for everybody, but you know, I always laugh at the phrase, you know, as a fisherman, are you going to fish or cut bait, right? You can't do both. You're either actively casting or you're getting the bait ready and it can't be both. And is there a time or how do you discern among your teams? When is it time to?

cut bait and by that I mean simply get things ready. Like work, this is not, you're not planning, you're not strategizing, you're not looking beyond right this minute. When is it time to do that? And when is it time to say, all right, everybody put on your big girl pants, we're gonna move forward, know, kind of whether you're ready or not, we gotta get through this next week season event, you know, whatever it is. And then we'll circle back. I mean, we're not gonna just, you know, leave you dead on the side of the road, but.

Rob Paterson (26:57)
We gotta get through this. And then we'll flip the back. But.

Jason Allison (27:07)
You know, how do you I don't know? Do you have any a grid or a lens through which you work through some of that that process?

Rob Paterson (27:09)
know, I I wish I did. I wish I had something that was like more of a helpful tool that everybody could use for me. It's a lot more intuition.

Jason Allison (27:18)
Yeah

Rob Paterson (27:28)
and, and I would say you gotta pay attention and you gotta, if you don't, if you don't have this and I, and quite honestly, I think for guys, we're not as good at this as women tend to be. Women tend to be a lot more perceptive and sensitive and, and I would say, relative to guys, I probably have more of that than is typical in a guy where I just like, I feel things and I'm like,

Jason Allison (27:37)
Right. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (27:55)
And I would say my discernment is like it's one of my spiritual gifts. And so I would say 90 % plus accurate when I have a sense of that person sideways, they usually are sideways or that person's exhausted. It's usually true. Um, whether, whether there are obvious signs or not. Um, and so I guess the one thing that I would say though, Jason is, you know, everybody knows their own tendencies. So like if your tendency is to be hard driving, like

Jason Allison (28:05)
Mm. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:24)
you know, we're going to take the we just took a mountain. Whoo, let's take another mountain while we're fired up. Right. And that might be your wiring. But and so you might have no like you're like, everyone's got to be just like fired up that we accomplished that goal and that we're now we're doing another thing, you know, and you have no idea just how exhausted and depleted everybody is because that's what fills your tank. It's how you're wired.

Jason Allison (28:29)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (28:51)
And so if you're, if your wiring is to go, go, go, you probably need to, think, okay, so how do I build in and schedule checkpoints, pause points, stop points where we can kind of fill up, so that we can sustain doing things. And then I think if your tendency more is like, Hey, no, we just got it. We.

Jason Allison (29:12)
Right.

Rob Paterson (29:18)
I mean, if we haven't heard from God, it's better to do nothing than to do, you know, something, cause we're just not even going to move until God speaks. And so you find yourself, you know, being more slow moving, and, and, and kind of doing those other things. Well, then you probably need to say, Hey, once a year, we're going to like, try something new. We're going to attempt something big.

Jason Allison (29:31)
Mm.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (29:46)
And we're going to push, push, push to make it happen. You know, because again, I if for a lot of, know people even in my own church and I'm a pusher, right? Who are like, they they're like, let's do something. Let's do stuff. Let's go. And if you're, can't always do that, but if you're not doing it with some regularity, you're going to lose a bunch of people who were like, I want to make a difference with my life. And if all we're going to do is twiddle our

Jason Allison (30:02)
Yeah.

Right.

Rob Paterson (30:16)
thumbs and wait for like some audible voice from the sky, we're going to go somewhere that's doing something. You know, so I think

Jason Allison (30:21)
Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes,

sometimes it's better to do something rather than nothing. Not always, but sometimes, you know, and that that's, that's the trick, right? Is to know that, something I heard you say is basically you try to, to build in, systemic pauses, like times in the rhythm where it just naturally, you don't have to make this decision. You don't have to discern that it's time you hit.

Rob Paterson (30:29)
Ha ha.

Jason Allison (30:51)
There's, there's times in the rhythm of your year where you're going to pause. and, and maybe it's to let some people catch up. Maybe it's to just to look around and say, wait, is everybody still here? you know, who's, who's got their hands on their knees and they're huffing and puffing, you know, who, who's really excited and you're just almost holding them back from whatever's next. Just, and you almost have to do that in a systemic way, like where, where there's a system that just.

forces you to do that. And for you, because you are kind of a driver in that way, you probably have to make sure those are in place. Now, you also are pretty intuitive and perceiving when it comes to and relational, really. So you're sensitive to that. I know a lot of pastors who they're really focused on the job at hand. Right. I have been brought into this context to do this and we're going to go and let's go and

They look around and at one point they're like, where'd everybody go? You know, well, you left them back there in the minefield. You didn't see the three different bombs that went off and cause you were so busy charging ahead. you know, they need some, some places that force a pause. And I think in the Christian calendar, there's, there's kind of that, those spaces, if even if you're not Catholic or liturgical or high church,

Rob Paterson (31:53)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:15)
You know, there's the time leading up to Christmas, the time leading up to Easter.

There's rhythms in all of that, and I think it's there on purpose.

Rob Paterson (32:23)
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's so good. And I think too, this goes back again, especially if you're a hard pusher or again, if you're if you're not. Also, this goes back to allowing some of your team members to lead because here's a great example. So in the church, right, like if a pastor preaches on giving, there's a sense that they have and everybody has that looks like, well, you know,

that that's the pastor. They have to say that kind of thing. Or even it's a little bit self-serving because you know, like your livelihood is contingent on the financial stability of your church. where if somebody who isn't employed by the church gets up and shares a testimony about how faithfulness in finances has resulted in

Jason Allison (32:51)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:18)
peace and blessing and change in their life. A lot of times like that's way more powerful than a pastor preaching the greatest sermon in the history of the world on giving. so there too, like, you know, if you're a pusher and you're just pushing for the next thing, everybody kind of, you know, whether they're doing it on the outside or the inside, they kind of roll their eyes and go, here we go again, cause they're always, there's always something next. There's always something else. There's always something new. again, if you're more of a kind of,

Jason Allison (33:28)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:48)
sit back and, and just let's be deep and pray and that kind of stuff, kind of a person, you know, people kind of, they're like, Hey, why don't we do this? Well, let's spend the next month praying about it. You know, like, here we go again. We're not one more great initiative that could potentially make a big difference that we're not going to do because we're praying instead, you know, can't we just can't we pray as well and, and do stuff. Right. And so sometimes letting other people

Jason Allison (34:10)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (34:16)
lead, letting other people say those things, share those testimonies, can be really, really powerful. And just one little kind of anecdote, which I thought was so good. Years ago, I was at a conference, I'm not even going to name names because we might get canceled again for, you know, listening to heretics and such. But this guy was a preaching conference and this guy said, you know, in the church, one of the main jobs of church leaders, of pastors is to be there, but do nothing.

And, and, and, and, know, like when you first, we first heard those words, it was like almost like what, you know, he said, no, no, no, it's like when you go to the doctor and the doctor says, Hey, you need to eat better. You need to, get some exercise, you know, that's going to help solve whatever problem issue, malady you're experiencing. And so we do it kind of half heartedly, for like two weeks. And then we're like, see,

Jason Allison (35:13)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:15)
That guy's an idiot. Like he was wrong. I did what he said and it didn't work. Right. And so, you know, when we do that and a lot of pastors do this, we're super prescriptive. We tell people what to do. We give them the answers. Like here's the five steps and the three this and the, and so people go off. They don't do it. Well, they do it half heartedly. And then we're to blame because we told them what to do. He's like, you need to be there, but like, don't do it for them.

Jason Allison (35:44)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:44)
force them to learn how to hear from God, force them. So you have to be there, but as soon as you start doing everything, you just become like the doctor who doesn't know what he's talking about because, there is, again, I don't want to take that analogy too far, but there is some of that. And if you and I are necessary in every room that we walk into, I actually think that makes our churches, our ministries very fragile.

Jason Allison (35:47)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (36:13)
something happens to us, everything falls apart, you know, but if we can sort of be present and empower everyone else to hear from God and take ownership, at least of the part of the ministry that he is shaped and created them for, boy, things get powerful quick.

Jason Allison (36:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I agree. No, that's really good. All right, let's wrap. Let's head towards the end here, land this plane. And which, you know, in preacher speak, we talked about this early on, means absolutely nothing. That doesn't mean we're finished and that just means we acknowledge.

Rob Paterson (36:48)
Right.

It gives people

some much needed false hope.

Jason Allison (36:53)
Exactly,

exactly. And that's what we do. So I haven't come up with a better title for this segment yet. So maybe our listeners can write in and give us some suggestions. The last segment that I want to do today is called Quiet Time with Rob and Jason. And I want to ask a question that hopefully makes not only you and me, but then our listeners to think, right? And just to ponder some things. Here's my question.

Talk about or name a time when you weren't authentically you in ministry and how that impacted your ministry. For me, I'll just, you quickly, I know there are times that I've, I have tried to be that visionary dude that has all the answers that's charging up the hill. And I can do that for a short stint.

But that is not me, like naturally. You know, my wiring and such is to be the guy who's helping the guy charge up, make sure he has everything he needs. He's got all the stuff he's got, you know. And so, you know, for 12 years leading a church plant and then a church, I wouldn't say that I was inauthentic in that, but there was a life cycle in that, that, you know, I reached a place where I don't...

I don't think I was being authentically me by saying, I'm the visionary leader of that. That's not me. so, and that impacted my ministry in that it began to wane in a lot of ways and people just kind of melted away because I wasn't being authentically me in that process. So for me, that's a time where I really feel like I was in authentically me and it had some impact.

Rob Paterson (38:23)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (38:51)
What about you?

Rob Paterson (38:51)
And

well, I think I would say for our listeners to, there's a lot of times you might come to a point where you're like, have I missed the mark? Am I not really like living into my calling to my gifts? You know, like, am I not being authentically me? and I would say for most of us, it's not like we like step into things that were like, this is so far from the bullseye of me that it's ridiculous. I think.

You have to live some life to really figure this out. So if you're, you know, just be perceptive and when you're in a role or a situation over time, I mean, if it's always robbing life and it never seems to work and it's not life giving, I would guess maybe you're, you know, you're on the right bus. You might just be sitting in the wrong seat and sitting in a different seat and letting someone else sit in the seat you're currently in probably would make everything better and more effective.

Jason Allison (39:48)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (39:50)
For me, before we came here, so gosh, this was like 14 years ago, we were in West Michigan. We moved there to plant a church. We planted a church in Indianapolis. know, Bethany and I are just all about multiplying the kingdom in every way we can. So we were church planters in Indianapolis, then we moved to West Michigan, we were planting a church there. And the interesting thing is we drove around before we moved up there.

and looked at the areas around the mother church that wanted to plant with us. There was this one community where we're like, man, there's just all these divides. There's rich and poor and black and white. And it's like literally this one little road that went through town that divided all of this. And so on one side of the street, you know, the average income was like 20,000 bucks. And on the other side, it was like $70,000. And the one side of the street was 70 % white and the other was like 92 % black.

Jason Allison (40:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (40:45)
You know, so as we just exegete at our community, the thing that just became a conviction for us was, man, how dare we tell somebody that God can change and transform them for eternity, but that he can't reconcile them to their neighbor who lives across the street just because they're in a different tax bracket or there's the color of their skin is different. Like if God isn't able to bring reconciliation in those situations,

There's no way we should believe that he can change things now and forever. Right. So we just were like, we're going to start this. And we started, we planted a church there. we were there for four years. It was, you know, I mean, we just saw beautiful things, but it was hard. We were always raising money. I was the full-time preacher, the full-time pastor, the full-time counselor, the full-time fundraiser. And, and actually one of my staff guys basically did many of those things as well. but man, we saw some.

cool stuff. I could tell you just great story after great story. Now we move here, you know, to a, to a, significantly larger church and, with a lot higher production value, although everything we did there, we did with excellence as well, you know, with the things that we had, but, but man, you know, like we crush it with excellence and new hope. it's, it's important to us. And, and so I remember six months in,

Jason Allison (41:58)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (42:11)
12 months in 18 months in really just having this sense that where I was was so much a better fit for me for my gifts for my skills for my calling all that kind of stuff. And so I would have friends pastors call me all the time and they would paint this picture of this this great need and then they would say do you think I should go do that? Should I plant that church? Should I go take that church? Because because this is so important.

Jason Allison (42:20)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (42:41)
And I would, I would say to them, well, it depends. Like either a is God, like, you like clearly heard from the Lord saying, I want you to do this. If, if God, cause sometimes that happens. Now I think it's like 10 % or less of the time that God sort of calls us to do things that aren't really, you know, aligned with who he's made us to be. But there are times where that does happen. but I think for the most part,

Jason Allison (42:49)
Right. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Rob Paterson (43:08)
The question isn't, is this important and should someone do it? The question is, is that aligned with who God has called and created you to be? Because you should do those kinds of things and let other people do the other important things. I could even argue that what we did in that smaller church plant in some ways was more significant than what I do now. It just wasn't as good of a fit for me.

And so, you know, and I think that's that's so important. I know lots of pastors who are like they have one role, but their heart is somewhere else. Like I know plenty of lead pastors who get burned out on preaching every week, who get burned out and always having to cast vision. And they're like, man, if I could just serve someone else who is doing that, I would feel more at home. You know, I'd feel more comfortable. I'd feel more like that's my gift to the church and to the world.

Jason Allison (43:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Rob Paterson (44:05)
You know, don't don't just do something because, you know, it has a little more prestige or a little bit more income or whatever. Man, do what God has made you to do and watch how he uses that not only to bless the church in the kingdom, but man, to bless you as well.

Jason Allison (44:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I love that. That was let's just end with that one for now. We'll we'll we'll visit this again, I'm sure multiple times. And I do want to point you back to a few weeks ago, our interview with Danny Parmoli and, you know, knowing yourself is really important. So that that 360 self aware tool that that's made available there. I take advantage of it because it will help you discern who who you are so that you can be authentically and fully present.

as you lead. Well, if you have any questions or maybe there's a topic or something you would like for us to discuss, please, please, please send us an email. I know in the show notes, there's a thing that says text us now and that we'll get that pretty quickly. Or you can obviously reach out, Jason at ChurchTalkProject.com or Rob at ChurchTalkProject.com. We love hearing from you. We love engaging that and we love that we get the honor of spending a little time with you.

every week, and we think that's a privilege. So, we also ask if you have a minute rate, the podcast, share the podcast, subscribe that, that helps us out and it helps other people find it. So, and have a great week. we, we love you and we can't wait to hear from you. just go out there and do something that really just blesses you and blesses the people around you. Have a great week.

Rob Paterson (45:45)
Have a

great day.