The Self Aware Pastor with Danny Parmelee

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, hosts Jason Allison, Rob Paterson, and Courtney engage with Danny Parmelee, the regional president of Converge Mid-America. The conversation centers around the importance of self-awareness in leadership, particularly for pastors and church leaders. Danny shares his personal journey of discovering the significance of self-awareness through coaching and feedback, emphasizing how it can lead to personal growth and improved leadership effectiveness. The discussion also touches on the challenges of vulnerability, the role of fear in leadership, and the introduction of a 360 self-awareness tool designed to help leaders gain insights into their strengths and weaknesses. The episode concludes with practical advice on implementing self-awareness practices within church leadership. In this conversation, the speakers discuss the importance of integrating health assessments into organizational culture, particularly within church settings. They explore the role of 360 assessments in leadership, emphasizing the need for a supportive environment that encourages honest feedback. The discussion highlights the significance of self-awareness, vulnerability, and the value of trusted relationships in personal and professional growth. The speakers also address common fears associated with self-assessment and offer encouragement to pastors and leaders to embrace the process as a means of faithful leadership.

Access Code for a Free 360 Assessment at 360 Self Aware: TheChurchTalk

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Danny Parmelee
02:39 The Importance of Self-Awareness in Leadership
11:29 Overcoming Fear and Vulnerability
17:30 The 360 Self-Awareness Tool
24:34 Processing Feedback and Growth
28:14 Implementing Self-Awareness in Church Leadership
28:44 Integrating Health Assessments into Organizational Culture
30:00 The Role of 360 Assessments in Leadership
32:01 Navigating the 360 Assessment Process
34:02 The Importance of Feedback and Self-Awareness
36:00 Encouraging Vulnerability in Leadership
37:56 The Value of Trusted Relationships in Growth
40:00 Overcoming Fear of Self-Assessment
42:00 Encouragement for Pastors and Leaders

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01.278)
Welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Jason and Courtney. And we have got an amazing special guest today, which we always have amazing ones, but this one's just like a step up. I don't know, Rob, you and I know him from way back. Courtney, you know him a little bit. What do you, what do you think, Rob?

Rob Paterson (00:21.554)
You know, mean, I'm okay with this guy as long as the oilers aren't playing the national predators and then we have problems. Other than that, I think he's awesome.

Danny Parmelee (00:28.824)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (00:32.586)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (00:32.673)
I knew Rob that you were going to say that and you have nothing to worry about this year. You guys have have consistently beat us and we're in second to last place. So.

Jason Allison (00:42.634)
Well, so for those of you listening, that was the voice of the one and only Danny Parmali. the big picture interview, whatever introduction is Danny is now the regional president of Converge Mid-America, which I mean, Danny, let's be honest, it's the biggest and the best of the regions as far as you're concerned. Right. And but

Danny Parmelee (00:45.666)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (01:03.14)
I'm very biased. I'm very biased for sure. But yeah, I'm thankful to be able to serve in this region.

Jason Allison (01:13.564)
No, and we're excited because I've known Danny for a long time because of church planting stuff and just, you know, converge stuff. Rob, have, know Courtney, you were involved. He was an assessor at your church planting assessment center, which, he's already given you quite the compliment before we hit record. He said your sermon that he had to sit through at the placement, whatever the assessment center was the best sermon he'd ever heard in his entire life. Like that was amazing.

Courtney (01:29.445)
Yes.

Courtney (01:42.001)
Nobody else? No, that's ten minutes.

Jason Allison (01:43.482)
Or maybe it was, that's what I heard at least. you know, that's pretty impressive considering the people that I'm sure he's sat under. But man, Danny, welcome to the podcast, man. We are so glad to have you today. Yeah. So we are, you know, our purpose as a podcast, as a group, that we want to engage, equip and encourage pastors and leaders. so honestly, to start off 2025, we've tried to do some things that help pastors and leaders.

Rob Paterson (01:43.704)
That's what I heard.

Danny Parmelee (01:54.104)
Thank you. Thank you.

Jason Allison (02:11.124)
grow in their abilities as leaders, as pastors, you know, in organizing things, in leading a vision and a mission for the local church. And so I really was excited that you were able to be part of this because you've, first of all, you've developed several different things that have nothing to do like with Converge specifically. They're great tools that we use. But I mean, I still use the coaching platform that you created with a bunch of stuff. but I know you, you just have a heart for leaders.

Danny Parmelee (02:13.526)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (02:24.643)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (02:28.792)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (02:36.482)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (02:39.99)
and for pastors, you wouldn't do what you do, you know, if you didn't. So maybe let's start off like your passion right now is self awareness and leaders being self aware. know, why is that something you've decided to start thinking about more lately?

Danny Parmelee (02:40.451)
Yep.

Danny Parmelee (02:49.888)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (02:57.206)
Yeah, so to clarify, it's actually not a lately thing. Some of it actually intertwines with my story a little bit. So I planted a church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 2005. We actually just celebrated the 20 year anniversary was this last weekend. I'm no longer there, of course, because I'm doing what I'm doing with converge on a regional level. But when when we planted I was just in my 20s.

Jason Allison (03:01.736)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (03:24.424)
you know, the church kind of took off. We were doing, you know, a lot of great things and it really wasn't until I was into the, church plant a bit about five years that I finally had a coach and, just an amazing coach. And, you know, I would share my problems, whatever. And, you know, he would just have like, you know, the greatest advice. And I remember one particular time I was explaining about all the problems I was having with the staff and.

structure and all of these different things. I just couldn't wait to get this amazing answer how he was going to help me solve all of these different things. And he looked at me and he said, the problem is you. And I just remember it was like knife in the heart. my God, I can't, how dare this guy, you know, say this. But because I had respected him so much and he had been coaching me for a while after I had my little tantrum.

Jason Allison (04:10.3)
Ooh.

Danny Parmelee (04:23.716)
Um, you know, I, I came to the realization that he was absolutely right. And what helped even more is that, uh, that is when he, and the first time I was ever exposed to doing a 360 assessment. And so, uh, what he ended up doing, and there's all different levels of, know, how you can do, do this, but, um, he basically went to, um, my staff, you know, people that were reporting to me, to the board, um, people in the past and had them, you know, just give some different feedback.

it was really, really hard to receive, how people perceived me, that I didn't, that I wasn't even aware of. So it's kind of like the, the running joke is like, I'm not aware of any blind spots. Like, what are you talking about? I don't have blind spots. I'm not aware of any. It's like, well, that's why they're called the blind spot. And, some of the things were maybe true.

Courtney (05:13.733)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (05:18.348)
what I would call either leadership or character deficiencies. There's no doubt about that. Like, hey, there's, you know, things, issues that I have and pride, but some of them were just even perceptions because of the way that I communicated or the different things that I did. And I just had no idea that I was perceived that way. I thought, man, everybody just loves me, loves being around me. You know, that my leadership, they love my directness and all these different things. So it was just really helpful.

And so that that's really, so that that goes all the way back to about 2010. Essentially, when I at least I might had my own personal journey with that, where I started to, I guess, be able to use that a little bit more, is in my work with church planters. And I have always just been so curious, with both church planters and pastors, why some churches are

successful and some aren't. And I would even be asking myself that question because I recognize around me that there were other pastors and other preachers who were more gifted, more talented. And so the question was like, well, what was happening with us in comparison to them? And then same as I worked with a group of church planners, how come that one was succeeding and that one wasn't? And while there's a number of different circumstances, one of the biggest things that I realized is that

the pastors that had a healthy self-perception, it did not mean that they were perfect. It didn't mean that they didn't have flaws. It meant literally that they were just aware of those different flaws. And to me, it was just one of those things that now, even as I continue to work with pastors and church planners and board members, and just even within everyday life, that that...

key so much is, is self awareness, those that are actually able to recognize why they're doing what they're doing, or not doing or saying what they're saying, or their different behaviors that way. So I just spit way too much out. So feel free to ask, ask some questions or disagree or

Rob Paterson (07:30.732)
You know, when you, when you first were saying that and you were like, you know, all these people who are way more gifted, but weren't as successful. And I was curious and I was like, like here on the church talk podcast, Danny Parmley is going to share the secret to how to be successful regardless. And then it's just being self-aware.

Danny Parmelee (07:37.412)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (07:45.817)
Yes.

Yes.

Yeah, so I mean, I mean, it is because I mean, I think that, I mean, as all pastors, we do it, we compare, it's not necessarily the right thing. And Chris Heifel and I, talk about this a lot about what is that, you know, like what is that, you know, secret formula or whatever. And there are certain things, they're just out of our hands, they're our circumstances. And yes, theology, sovereignty of God, all of that stuff as well too, but.

when it comes down to it, you see some of these different critical moments in a leader's life, and how they respond to it. So let me give you just like an example of that that I think is like really, really concrete. So we've been told, always that we should gather people around us that like fill in our, you know, gaps, like, hey, if you're not good at organizing, don't try to get better at organizing, find someone who is, you know, whatever.

those and I totally agree with that. However, this is the part that I think a lot of pastors miss is they are nervous to gather people around them that are actually good or better at the things that they're good at. So let's use preaching, for example, again, I'll share my own story. We had a high, what I would say high quality preaching at our church. And I would love to bring in a guest preacher.

Jason Allison (08:58.898)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (09:12.194)
As long as they were just a little bit worse than I was, I wanted it to be a good Sunday, but God forbid if someone came. So, so anyways, it, and I use that as kind of a joking example, but, for a lot of leaders were nervous. That if we bring talented people that are talented or even more talented, the things that we're supposed to be preaching, leading those types of things. And I would say, again, looking back, even at our journey at Epikos

Jason Allison (09:16.172)
No.

Danny Parmelee (09:40.202)
it sincerely became successful because of other staff that were good at things that even I was good at. And, you know, there's this whole story that I share about, you know, the first campus pastor that we hired, and he was like, okay, at preaching. And then, you like, I remember the time when these people came in, and they were like, who's preaching today? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm preaching, like, because I know that they want to have their and they're like,

we were just wondering if Paul was, you know, the other, and I was like, my gosh, you're kidding me. Right. You know, and I was like, shoot. But instead of saying, all right, well, I can no longer have him preach because people are going to like him more than me. And what if he splits the church or he wants to become lead patterns, just get rid of all of that. And we ended up developing this teaching team then that was very, very talented, preachers. And then that became the draw and actually

I would say it was a big part of it because we even had different styles and different approaches and those types of things. And so if pastors can get to that place and understand when they have that feeling, so this is like specific to the self-awareness stuff, when you all of a feel threatened and there's something and your blood pressure starts increasing, go, what is it? And then when you answer your own question, ask it again, because you're probably even like lying to yourself a little bit. You're like, well, you know.

you know that people like them because they're like a little more watered down or whatever your excuse is. And you're you know, you try to have this like righteous motivation, but to go you know what, it's probably I'm jealous, or I'm threatened. Or, yeah, just or scared fear. So much stuff is just fear based fear that I'm gonna lose my job fear that people are going to view me, you know, kind of kind of a different way. So

Rob Paterson (11:08.778)
Hahaha

Jason Allison (11:16.67)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (11:29.962)
Do you find that fear is one of those things that seems to be at the heart of a lot of pastors who are afraid to expose themselves, to be vulnerable, to learn this stuff about them?

Danny Parmelee (11:44.004)
Um, yeah, absolutely. I think one of it is learning. And then the second part would be actually following through on what it means to like change or to alter that behavior. So, um, it's interesting cause I know you mentioned it a little bit, but the, software that we created so that people could do three sixties themselves. So yes, you can go out and hire a company, you know, pay three to $5,000 or whatever, but I was like,

Well, you can really facilitate the same thing to garner that like anonymous feedback from people. So we created this platform to be able to do it. The thing is, is that I thought it would just take off like gangbusters. The issue is, it unless someone is telling you, you need to do it. It's like, do you want to go to the doctor and have, you know, like.

You don't want to you don't want to get your cholesterol checked. You don't want to get your weight checked. You don't want all these things because you're like, shoot, that may mean that I may learn some things. So it's there's fewer people, I think, that want to do it. So I'm actually even looking at my approach, even with the platform like, hey, how do we get this in the hands of, you know, the HR department, the board, you know, for boards that, hey, we really want our lead pastor to do this.

Jason Allison (12:57.083)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (13:00.406)
And to know that it is for their benefit, but it's is it's sometimes hard news to get and it is really hard for people even to read through it because we just we think so highly of ourselves. Now, the reverse is true in it. And this gets explained through the process of it. You will also find things about yourself that people perceive about you that you didn't think about yourself in a positive light. So we've had people go through the 360 and

You know, they're like, Oh, I'm, I'm not a numbers person or whatever. You know, they, make these statements or I can't speak in front of people and everyone sees them as the creative or the musician or the numbers or the executor. And they never thought that about themselves. And then all of a it's like, Oh my goodness, people perceive me positively in that way. And, um, I didn't. So the whole thing is based on like scoring and what you're looking for in a three 60 is, um,

really that differential between what you think and what they think it could be positive or negative in either direction. But if you're like, you know, you know, I'm a communicator, I give myself a two and everyone else is giving you an eight. You know, there's actually an awareness there. It's like, wow, there might be something there. And maybe that even stems back to one, you know, you know, teacher when you were in middle school that said you could never public speak. And that's just like hanging in there forever for you, you know, and also it took took

Jason Allison (14:27.444)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (14:29.174)
a group of anonymous people to say, you're good at that, you know.

Courtney (14:33.2)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (14:33.25)
That's, that's so good. Danny, I'm, curious. mean, you know, you're kind of, you've talked about this idea, you know, and again, I think probably for all of us, for everyone listening, you know, they're thinking, yeah, like this would be a helpful gift, but I don't know if I want to receive it because it can't be a scary, difficult thing to hear these things. You know, as you've worked with probably, you know, hundreds of church planners, pastors, you know, over a long period of time, you know, maybe tell a story of.

Danny Parmelee (14:36.738)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (14:50.499)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (15:03.118)
you know what the process has looked like for somebody, you know, to kind of be kind of open to this and going through it and what that results in. then what for other people, you know, what have you seen maybe are the kind of hangups where they just sort of refuse to go in this direction.

Danny Parmelee (15:18.594)
Yeah, yeah, I think well, if I can speak to it even just generally, I think and again, this is where I'm still kind of working through it as far as like if it's initiated by someone else or by you. Unfortunately, a lot of three sixties are initiated under bad circumstances. In other words, someone's about to get fired and the board wants, you know, reason to.

fire them. So it's like, Hey, we're gonna see what other people have to say. But yeah, everyone thinks you're a jerk. You're out of here, whatever type of thing. So I'm still trying to find that delicate balance. The thing is, is that most that are willing to take it in their initiative on their own, for the most part, they're taking the information, the feedback from others because they want to it's the person that's like, No, I do want to go to the doctor, because I want to figure out

And I want to actually be better. So already there's that mentality type of thing. I've read a couple different books on 360 and, and one of the, one of the authors, I can't remember exactly how she like phrase it, but she's like, there's a certain percent of people, you know, I know the word narcissist is kind of thrown around, so I hate using it, but she's like, it wouldn't matter what was put down before them. They're, have, they have no, they're not going to change. It's just like,

Jason Allison (16:39.786)
you

Danny Parmelee (16:40.484)
you know, but it's a smaller percent. I think she said like, like 10 % or less than that. So everybody else who takes it, there's going to be, there's going to be at least something. And it's not like if you go through a 360 that, you know, you're like cured in a day. And even the things that I've learned on my 360, it's stuff that I'm still working through. And like I said, you, the first step is awareness. The second step is to be able to like change some of those behaviors. So

Jason Allison (17:09.482)
So real quick, and we'll put all this in the show notes, but you allude to this 360. And I just want to let everyone know you have actually developed a tool, a 360 self-awareness tool. It's a website that people can go to. Maybe tell us just a little bit about that so that our listeners know how to connect with that. And then we can talk more about the process.

Danny Parmelee (17:14.178)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (17:30.126)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (17:33.178)
I clicked on the link Danny, it was scary. mean, there was flames and kind of like Latin words and it was frightening.

Danny Parmelee (17:33.188)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the website is 360selfaware.com and I don't think I told you guys this, but what I'd like to do is for your listeners, they can use it for free. I mean, it's not an expensive tool. It's like $19, but hey, an extra $19 get Qdoba.

Courtney (17:36.784)
N-

Courtney (17:40.719)
Warning all you who enter here.

Jason Allison (17:42.122)
Hmm.

Danny Parmelee (18:02.308)
Starbucks in the morning, Qdoba for lunch or Chipotle for lunch, whatever you want. And what I'll do is we'll make a code for it and we can just call it the church talk. So the nice thing about it is you can go through the entire 360 without, you don't have to pay for anything or, you know, put in a credit card or anything like that. It's just right at the end. If you wanted the printed results with the graphs and

You know, all of those different things. cause some people are like, well, I don't even know if I'd get enough people to participate. Maybe people wouldn't. So you get to control and you don't get to see what they answer, but you get to see who you don't even actually get to see who filled it out. But, you, you were the one that provides all of the different people. And there's like three different categories where you're kind of entering in different, a list of names and email addresses. And after that, everything is automated. So they get the surveys.

They fill them out. They're actually getting automated reminders and stuff because it's, it's basically like a two week process. and the, the higher the participation level that the better it is for you as far as kind of like the collective information. so anyways, they would do that, do the whole thing. And then at the end, when it's like, Hey, now, if you want to see the results, they can just type in the code, the church talk, right? That's the name. I'm looking at your logo right now on the screen. So

So we'll do that and we'll just set up a special coupon code for them to be able to do it.

Jason Allison (19:28.362)
Yes.

Jason Allison (19:35.988)
Well, that's really, really nice of you. I mean, you're a really nice guy and you're very generous. so to provide that, I I really do. I appreciate that.

Danny Parmelee (19:38.958)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (19:42.958)
Thanks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There you go. There you go. That's awesome.

Rob Paterson (19:45.496)
Jason's buttering you up. We're gonna talk sponsorships and things like that afterward.

Jason Allison (19:51.543)
Yeah. Uh-huh. Courtney, do you want to jump in?

Courtney (19:56.811)
Yeah, Danny, I had like the similar kind of feeling going through seminary of what we had a similar test, it had a different name, but where you submit, you know, family, friends to people you work with and they fill it out and then you fill it out and you again, you see that differential. And one of them was like speaking or preaching, which is interesting that you mentioned that at kind of the top of the show, because that was one where I scored myself low and they all scored me higher. And

Danny Parmelee (19:58.083)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (20:03.958)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Danny Parmelee (20:09.698)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (20:15.908)
You

Danny Parmelee (20:21.688)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (20:24.899)
And I think for me, like, it was just like, I had never seen a woman really preach before. And so then as we're doing our preaching classes, I'm like, I don't look like, you know, the people who I'm listening to preach, you know, and so then I have no way to gauge my own self-awareness in terms of like, what is this? Like, what is it even supposed to look like for me to do this? Well, right. And.

Danny Parmelee (20:35.16)
Right.

Danny Parmelee (20:43.49)
Yeah. Yeah. But I have a question. What did that do in you when you read it? I mean, did it did it or were you just kind of like, maybe and then later now looking back on it, it makes more sense or was was that? Yeah, I don't want to fill in the blanks for you, but I am curious, like, like genuinely, it's OK. There's not a right or wrong to that.

Courtney (21:03.833)
Yeah, no, it is a weird thing. I think for me, it's like, okay, well, is this natural ability that I need to cultivate or is this like, you know, kind of discerning the difference between like gifting and kind of just like, is it because I'm good at talking or something? Like, is this really like kind of a spiritual thing that I need to cultivate and then pursue a career path into preaching? Or like, what would preaching look like for me? Because I wasn't necessarily at that time in seminary doing that.

Danny Parmelee (21:10.148)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (21:17.358)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (21:23.874)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Courtney (21:29.617)
Convictionally like around women speaking and preaching and leading in that kind of way. So it was one of those things where it's like, what did I just do that well in this one class and it, or is that something that I should actually kind of, you know, shape my life around? And so those were things that I had to, had to spend time discerning over the next year. I, at that point time had just recently been hired at a church that had two female leaders on staff who both preached regularly. So I was able to meet with them and kind of see them.

Danny Parmelee (21:39.086)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:52.41)
.

Courtney (21:58.629)
preach and speak more and kind of gain insight as to what it could be like to develop, you know, a preaching voice as a woman in a church and things like that. So yeah, it did, it did kind of spark this like level of searching and kind of leading down the career path to where we are now, basically.

Danny Parmelee (21:59.609)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (22:08.899)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (22:13.26)
Yeah. Now on that, do you remember anything that was negative that was kind of the knife in the heart or the thing that you just go, wait a minute, like who, yeah, who, who said that? And you're trying to figure, you're trying to figure it out.

Courtney (22:22.664)
yes, but we don't need to talk about that, we?

Rob Paterson (22:26.692)
You

Courtney (22:27.097)
I know. Yes, there were some things like that. Yeah. And then some of it's like, maybe it was just kind of the season of life that was it was a very hard season of life. And so you're like, maybe this, like one of them was like, she's not very confident in herself. And I was like, I didn't know I was projecting like, kind of insecurity on it onto people.

Danny Parmelee (22:36.78)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (22:45.708)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:48.046)
Okay.

Courtney (22:50.961)
And it was just a very hard season in life, a lot of transition and stuff. so I felt, I kind of personally felt like that was, was that, was that like, you know, there was just a lot up in the air and in terms of our future and along with getting hired onto a new job and all those kinds of things. So you kind of do feel insecure, like you have no clue what you're doing for a long time in those kinds of roles. And so, yeah, there were some things like that where I was like, I didn't know that about myself, you know.

Danny Parmelee (23:13.124)
Mm hmm. Yeah, it's also why with 360 and I know we we've used that term is that there are people that are above you below you equal to you kind of thing. So you're trying to get this very well rounded. And the more that you have the better because when you see what we what we show in our reports are, you know, you see the averages, but then you see what made up those individual scores. So if it's like

Rob Paterson (23:35.526)
Okay.

Courtney (23:41.841)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (23:43.118)
how is this person at communicating? And it's you know, seven, six, seven, seven, five, eight, and then two, you know, two is the person, they're the outlier, they maybe saw you one time and whatever, and it was just one of those different things. So just that, that's why again, yeah, just having multiple people and you can kind of figure some of those different things out as well. So.

Courtney (23:56.303)
Yeah.

Courtney (24:06.769)
Yeah. And yeah, and I mean, eventually, like after processing a lot, because like we worked with it with like our counselor at our seminary and stuff. like, it was like, I understand why. Like why they thought like I was felt insecure of my own abilities and things like that. But yeah, it was a hard thing to to come to terms with because you're like, I just didn't know that you're doing some of those things. And it's hard. It's hard to become self-aware. You know, sometimes it's better to be self unaware.

Rob Paterson (24:08.282)
Hmm.

Danny Parmelee (24:14.564)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (24:27.513)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (24:30.934)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:32.789)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (24:34.003)
Well, mean, and Courtney, you said something there, though, that I think, you know, Danny, our listeners are going to wonder about. said you processed it with, you know, a counselor, a therapist. And I'm wondering, you know, what are your recommendations, Danny, when a person goes through this process and they get the results back and maybe they're really great, maybe that what it doesn't matter. But what are your recommendations as a follow up to that?

Danny Parmelee (24:40.376)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (24:51.585)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (24:53.149)
.

Danny Parmelee (24:57.676)
Yeah. So I do think obviously I'm a fan of professional counseling. and even if it's not, you know, the professional counselor who is, you know, walking you through the three 60, you can just bring up the different things. And I think that, you know, they have enough training to be able to go, okay, well let's explore that a little bit more. again, even paying attention yourself, the ones that are the zingers, why is it such a zinger? You know, what is it in you that you're, you're responding, you know, to those things.

Rob Paterson (25:22.23)
Hmm.

Danny Parmelee (25:26.998)
and we do a lot of peer to peer coaching. And so, you know, even within our own staff culture, you wouldn't need a professional counselor if you had, you know, a good enough, trusted, you know, coworker to be able to do that. And like I said, when I was at, when I was at Epic Coast and that we weren't doing three sixties as a team at that time, but the relationship that I had and developed then amongst the staff is that we were able to speak the truth and love.

to one another as hard as that was. And it's really what galvanized us as a staff team. And like I said, brought us to that place of, you know, of health and growth. Patrick Lencioni, one of my favorite books that he has is called The Advantage. The Advantage, even though he's not using the terms like 360 and those types of things, he is absolutely talking about staff culture health.

Rob Paterson (26:13.15)
Hmm.

Danny Parmelee (26:24.748)
and talks about it, I believe he's the one that talks about as competitive advantage. And so that goes back to the whole thing that I said with, you know, churches that are successful and again, circumstances, all these other things. But if there's something that you want to be able to control, control the your own your own personal self awareness, own personal health, health of the staff team.

Calling out ego, calling out sin, figuring out why we do different things, identifying those fears. mean, Jason, you said that a lot. And it is, mean, so many things are rooted back in what are the fears, fear of failure, fear of acceptance, all those things. And unfortunately pastors, they're the ones that end up in these positions. It's such a ironic thing. but.

Rob Paterson (26:59.79)
Yeah, that's that's good. Danny, you you earlier kind of mentioned a lot of times when people have the courage and interest to sort of self initiate this process, that it tends to be a real gift if they can push through.

Danny Parmelee (27:23.138)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (27:28.526)
And a lot of times when it's like, you know, a church board or whatever, a lot of times that is more, well, this is kind of the nail in the coffin. We're just looking for, you know, the Intel to back up what we're feeling and thinking. But, you know, I mean, whether it's a pastor listening to this podcast episode, or maybe it's a high level leader or even an elder or a church board member, whatever, listening in. And it's not, Hey, I want to, I want to get this person, but it's really more of a.

Danny Parmelee (27:32.099)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (27:37.156)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (27:56.132)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (27:57.24)
Hey man, if this could be a gift to our leaders, our staff, man, maybe we should do something here. What are the role of leaders in the church and elders and board members to help initiate some of these things in a healthy way?

Danny Parmelee (28:00.321)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (28:11.64)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I think one of the ways to do it is that you actually put it in in the rhythm. And that's one of the things I'm I'm, you know, newly president just had our first board meeting last week. And one of the things that I talked to them about is that, you know, it should be policy that I have a 360 review every three years. So what's great about that, and then in the in between years, they're doing stealth health assessments, which also

within those stealth staff health assessments, they're asking questions about the superior. So it's not a full 360, but just in case anything is not going well, at least there's an indication that way. And when you have that part of the rhythm, it then doesn't feel punitive. The moment it feels punitive, it's harder to receive. It also makes it a little tentative for people to fill it out. If it's all something like, okay, well, am I filling this out because I'm getting somebody in trouble instead of saying,

Jason Allison (29:01.93)
you

Jason Allison (29:12.714)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (29:13.752)
Hey, this is part of the regular rhythm. So I think if I'm an elder board and I'm listening to this type of thing, or even if I'm a pastor to say, hey, let's just put this in as the regular rhythm instead of a reaction to something that's going on.

Jason Allison (29:31.102)
Yeah, that's, that's really good because it does feel like too often the 360 assessment self, you know, this is, is punitive, you know, and I know my, even my experience in, you know, evaluations and so forth, it always feels like they're, they're looking for something to, to pick at, you know? And, and so I like that idea of just make this part of the rhythm so that everyone

Rob Paterson (29:36.69)
.

Danny Parmelee (29:50.968)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (29:57.766)
is involved in the process as both the receiver and, you know, as a one who maybe is filling out an assessment on one of their coworkers or something like that. Is that would you even say that's that's a healthy thing to have everyone that's involved, even possibly board members, maybe that are volunteers? Would they be? Is that something you would throw in or you think that's too far?

Rob Paterson (29:58.382)
Okay.

Danny Parmelee (30:00.216)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (30:10.456)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (30:19.876)
Say that again. You said that they would be involved in the follow-up process or no? Is that what you're asking? Okay.

Rob Paterson (30:21.742)
Okay.

Jason Allison (30:22.269)
It so.

No, what would it look like if, first of all, I think you've already said this, but the entire staff of a church and organization, they could all have a 360 assessment done individually and of course participate with each other in that. But I wonder if I'm a pastor at a church and I've got an elder board of five elders, maybe it's not a big, huge church or anything. How effective do you think it would be to

Danny Parmelee (30:40.206)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (30:48.878)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (30:51.534)
Okay.

Jason Allison (30:55.114)
even engage the board and have each of them do a 360 because a lot of churches, you know, a board term is three years. So doing one at the beginning that maybe that's a, I don't know. What do think?

Danny Parmelee (30:55.874)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (31:07.074)
Yeah. Yeah. And we, so we have had the one unique thing is, is when everybody tries to do it at the same time, it is a little weird. So we had one church. So like, Hey, we're doing a retreat. So I tried to tell them, don't do it. just, there's just, there's, it's like too much at one time. so I do think that you have to kind of like, you have to pace it out. And it doesn't mean that every, cause let's say you have eight staff members and if all eight are doing it and

Jason Allison (31:23.966)
Yeah, yeah.

Danny Parmelee (31:36.75)
That means that each one is doing seven others. You know what I mean? It's not that you have every single person. And that's why I think part of it is to be able to have the staff select certain people in each category. I mean, you have to be careful. And again, this is a part where you need to be honest. You're not just picking your friends. But it doesn't mean that you exclude your friends either, because a lot of times,

Jason Allison (31:39.05)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:50.446)
Thank

Jason Allison (31:53.834)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:01.07)
.

Danny Parmelee (32:04.364)
or the people that you're closest to, or you know that they kind of like look up to you to have this very, very broad and as many as possible to do it. But, you know, you can't just have every single person that you know on the staff team, especially if multiple are doing it. So I don't know if I answered your question exactly in that, it's hard for all of a everybody to do it all at once. It needs to be kind of like paced out for it. So.

Jason Allison (32:26.024)
Yeah, that makes sense.

Courtney (32:28.153)
Yeah, cause you have might, like you said, might have one person filling out seven people's, three sixties. And that's just a lot for them to think about and evaluate someone. Cause it's those kinds of questions are very in depth and you really have to take a good amount of time to fill them out for someone else even.

Danny Parmelee (32:32.502)
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (32:40.354)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:43.038)
Mm.

Danny Parmelee (32:43.554)
Yeah. And so again, not to just talk about the platform that we did, the way that it works on there is that it's, did I lose you guys? No. Okay. Is that it's numeric and then it's also then as well, not just numeric, but then allows them to put in a comment and then the comments are randomized. So you can't figure out like,

Rob Paterson (33:09.038)
Okay.

Danny Parmelee (33:12.29)
Well, we went to camp one time and it's like, okay, you know, response number seven, that's Jim. Cause Jim and I are the only ones that went to camp. and then, and that we also really made it so that the response part of it was optional, uncertain things. So you're always getting the numeric thing so that someone can go through it pretty quickly. And of course we say to those that are filling it out, they get the thing saying, but the narrative and the written responses often are the most.

Courtney (33:15.663)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (33:37.774)
Mm.

Danny Parmelee (33:41.432)
helpful, but that way they may comment on only three of the 20 some questions. And the other ones, it's like, you know, how are they at, you know, organization nine? Great. You know, don't even need to say anything about that. But then it's like about this. I kind of want them to see something that I think that they are already hear something that I think that they need to hear. So.

Jason Allison (34:03.21)
It's an opportunity to give some context when that's appropriate. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (34:06.658)
Yep. Yep. Yep.

Rob Paterson (34:06.766)
Yeah, no, you know, as we're having this conversation, I'm having these flashbacks because I remember when I was assessed as a church planter, gosh, this is like decades ago now. But I still remember doing an exercise and, you know, everybody was broken up into groups for this exercise. And of course, all the assessors, you know, are like gathered around watching us.

Jason Allison (34:10.526)
Go ahead, Rob, you look like you're about to say something.

Danny Parmelee (34:29.774)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (34:36.502)
And so I'm thinking in my, in my own head, I'm like, Hey, this is like the time to shine, to like, you know, be a strong leader. And, and it was very interesting because, a lot of the group responded to that and engaged with it. but there was one guy who, as soon as I sort of like, you know, sort of stepped up, he instantly like completely disengaged and I, I missed it for probably.

Danny Parmelee (34:42.052)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (35:05.026)
half of the exercise because I was just more focused on the people that loved me and wanted to engage and follow what I was doing.

Danny Parmelee (35:07.46)
No, no, Rob, Rob, you were focused on yourself. OK, you are are you are a prime candidate for a three. And I'm just kidding. Keep going.

Courtney (35:14.129)
Ngh.

Rob Paterson (35:14.627)
Yeah, right, right.

Rob Paterson (35:18.83)
No, no. Yeah, a hundred percent. I'm going to use the little, the little coupon code thing. No, but I just remember and, know, people afterwards when we were debriefing this did not talk about, Rob, you know, wow, you were just really like leading people and inspiring what everyone saw was the one person that completely disengaged that I had for enough of the time missed that.

Jason Allison (35:19.344)
no, he is. No, you're good.

Courtney (35:26.417)
NNNN

Danny Parmelee (35:36.216)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (35:42.306)
Yeah. Yep.

Danny Parmelee (35:48.013)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:48.078)
by the time I tried to sort of pull him in, it was just way too late. And to this day, that is something that still I always have in the back of my mind. I wanna be me, but I also wanna be paying attention to just like the dynamics because again, it's so easy to miss those things because we're focused on something else. that assessment even all those years ago was a huge gift for me.

Danny Parmelee (35:52.525)
Yep.

Danny Parmelee (36:00.323)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (36:06.222)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (36:18.488)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (36:20.244)
So Danny, I'm in that light though, as you think about, you know, people going through this process and being, you know, becoming more self-aware. what do you recommend? Like how, what kind of posture do they need to take as they approach this? Because you've got, you know, some senior leaders who feel like, Hey, I'm the leader. I need to, you know, show leadership kind of like Rob was saying, describing himself for, you know, a little bit of I'm in charge.

Danny Parmelee (36:47.278)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (36:50.09)
I'm casting the vision. really can't show weakness, but you also need to be aware and vulnerable. I don't know what kind of mentality does a person need to bring into this type of process.

Danny Parmelee (36:54.276)
Thanks

Danny Parmelee (37:02.594)
Yeah, well, I think that the people that are taking it, they they do want to become a better leader. And so if they understand that how they're being perceived is really people saying, hey, you you may think you're a leader in these areas, but you're actually not. And they they can grasp that. Then then it's then it's absolutely great because that's the people that are following them are giving that that type of feedback to be able to do so.

Jason Allison (37:32.19)
Yeah, there is something about being an openness, obviously, that you've got to have in that. And I don't know how many assessments that you've done through the thing that you've developed. do you guys do any of the follow-up, or is that pushed back to the organizations that are utilizing the service?

Danny Parmelee (37:33.698)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (37:46.308)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So, yeah. So, so actually right now, if you're familiar, even with Eagle brook association, and if, you've ever done their three 60, a lot of our, actually even a lot of our questions were really, really similar. actually EBA, Eagle brook association now uses three 60 as their main tool for facility, facilitating that three 60 process. And they have, coaches who do that.

Jason Allison (37:55.658)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (38:16.846)
so I, I don't, we don't, I literally, it's like, it's the tool and whatever, group or pastor churches is using it because it is not, it's not Christian based. even non-Christian businesses or whatever can, can, can use it that way. So we don't do any of the coaching. The other thing I was going to say when you were talking about that at minimum, if you're married to have a spouse, be the one that also, re reads through that and to say,

What do you think it might even be their opportunity to be like, yes, absolutely. I've been trying to tell you that for 15 years or whatever, type of thing. Cause what I don't want to do is, scare people off into thinking like, okay, you do this tool and then now you're left with this and like, you have to go out and get professional counseling or something. I really think that honestly it's, and maybe it's just the start of the journey that you're learning some of those different things. I honestly think you could go through it, get enough information.

and say, I actually even learned some things, share it with a trusted friend, go out to coffee with a couple people and you'd probably be fine. But for those that want to take it even a step further than you had to get a, to get a coach. Maybe you guys could start a side business, a little cottage business off of 360 and run with it. And I'll license you to do that. And then I just get, you know, like, I don't know, Chipotle gift cards. That's my thing.

Jason Allison (39:22.686)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (39:28.19)
Yeah. Well, and that's

Jason Allison (39:33.311)
What?

Jason Allison (39:37.4)
Rob Paterson (39:43.542)
Done.

Jason Allison (39:43.88)
I will, I will happily pay you in Chipotle gift cards. Yeah. Actually I was going to say that, that, you know, that is something that as the church talk podcast and our little organization, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a coach. train coaches, Rob's a coach, you know, right. So if someone takes advantage of your offer, from our listenership and they would like someone afterwards to process it with them, as a, you know, in a coaching type thing.

Courtney (39:46.011)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (39:57.017)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (39:57.262)
.

Danny Parmelee (40:00.536)
Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (40:06.329)
Yep.

Danny Parmelee (40:11.62)
Yep.

Jason Allison (40:13.544)
You know, we are more than happy to take that on and to help them through that process. And we won't even charge them for the first little bit.

Courtney (40:23.013)
You can see, it's like Courtney's not a coach. She's just along for the ride.

Danny Parmelee (40:23.172)
There you go.

Jason Allison (40:26.312)
Yeah, Courtney. Yeah, but I would probably bring your wisdom in whenever possible. Yeah, that's yeah, you just haven't gone through the training yet. That's the only only difference in that. No, Danny, I really do appreciate it. I think I think you're right in basically telling pastors, hey, you don't need to be afraid of this. This is not something that once you do, you're going to take years of therapy to undo or to overcome.

Danny Parmelee (40:26.884)
you

Rob Paterson (40:28.238)
Yet.

Courtney (40:33.745)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (40:39.78)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (40:46.673)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (40:47.022)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (40:51.438)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (40:52.488)
This is more about, if I do this, I will actually be able to grow as a leader. And man, if you're a pastor or a leader and you don't want to grow as a leader, well, you probably need to get out of it anyway. that's, you we all need to be growing. So man is so generous of you. Number one for your time. but number two, to even offer, you know, this code that, that our listeners can use. I really do appreciate that. And, and I know I've, I've already been on the website and, know, kind of started the process and.

Danny Parmelee (40:54.253)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (41:01.376)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Rob Paterson (41:01.918)
Mm.

Courtney (41:02.864)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (41:19.6)
I'm going to try to figure out how to work it with my three or four hats that I wear, who fills out what and where. And I'm hoping if Rob does it, he includes me as one of the...

Danny Parmelee (41:24.856)
Yeah.

Courtney (41:30.769)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (41:32.034)
Yeah, I was just going to say, man, I want to get that link for you,

Jason Allison (41:35.962)
hahahaha

Courtney (41:37.908)
Yeah, agree, Danny. I don't think you have to be afraid like, oh man, I'm going to have to see a counselor for the rest of my life. I've got these major hidden psychological struggles I didn't know about. We did ours as part of our like pastoral counseling class in seminary. it, so the counselor was like built into the class. But then he was like, if you do have a trusted friend or like, you know, someone hire you.

Danny Parmelee (41:43.224)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (41:53.208)
Yeah, yep.

Danny Parmelee (41:58.147)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (42:00.069)
than you at work who could be a good mentor through this process. That's exactly what I did with some of those things related to preaching. I took it to my boss at work and he assigned one of those, you know, other female staffers. And then we just met regularly to kind of work through that. And it opened up a great mentoring relationship that made me closer to the staff early on in that hiring process. And I probably would have been otherwise. So I think that if you're doing it for someone lower than you on like the staff totem pole, it offers like, you know, some great mentoring relationships that are.

Danny Parmelee (42:01.59)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (42:18.295)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (42:22.21)
Yeah.

Courtney (42:29.841)
opportunities.

Jason Allison (42:30.92)
Yeah. So Danny, go ahead, Rob.

Rob Paterson (42:32.031)
Yeah, Danny, as I'm hearing this and as we're like trying to kind of soft.

peddled this, you know, to leaders to say, well, it really won't be that bad. is there also an element though, like if someone's a younger leader, you know, and, gets on board with doing these, you know, and, some kind of seasonal cycle versus maybe somebody who has not had this opportunity, not thought about this or even resisted it maybe for decades and are doing it. Do you think like,

Danny Parmelee (42:39.492)
.

Courtney (42:42.117)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (42:48.178)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (42:58.478)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (43:04.63)
Maybe it could be more difficult, like the longer you've gone without self-awareness.

Danny Parmelee (43:07.256)
Yes.

100%. so the, young, and like I said, I was, it would have been 20 something maybe, maybe just turning 30 when I first, did that first one and then have taken a number, since then. and each time, I mean, for me now it's kind of like, cool. What am I learning? What am I growing in? You get to see the progress and in some of that, which is a really great thing. yes, I will tell you from experience that some that are.

and it's not just an age thing, but they're so set in their ways. And again, it's a mentality thing, but, how, how dare someone tell me that I'm not a good leader. Look at, look at what I've done. And it's like, look at what you think of what you could have done though. You know, like you used even some of those strengths that you had. And, but if you would have even, you know, had some of that self awareness, you probably could have done a whole bunch more. So yeah.

Rob Paterson (43:51.006)
Hmm.

Courtney (43:59.216)
Mm.

Danny Parmelee (44:08.536)
So I think if you're a younger leader out there, that's, that's actually the time to do it. So.

Jason Allison (44:09.022)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (44:12.366)
.

Jason Allison (44:13.354)
Yeah. Maybe as we bring this in for a landing, there, do you have any words of encouragement for pastors and leaders who might be listening to this? Knowing you are the leader of an organization that has what, four or five, how many churches are in Mid-America now? Like 500? I can't remember.

Danny Parmelee (44:18.788)
Mm-hmm.

Danny Parmelee (44:33.508)
We're at 800. However, yes, a number of those are in the Caribbean, which that doesn't mean that they're not churches, but we have a little bit of, well, actually be in Cuba this week with some of our pastors are there and we have a lot that are in Cuba and Dominican Republic. But what was the question? Words of encouragement? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (44:35.178)
800.

Jason Allison (44:53.864)
Yeah. yeah. I mean, you are engaged with almost a thousand churches in your network. What are some words of encouragement you might share?

Danny Parmelee (45:04.386)
Yeah. Yeah. Don't No. So I've been trying to help our pastors to work on faithfulness. And part of this is I just see how much comparison kills and social media and all that doesn't help. But I just I mean, we

Jason Allison (45:09.68)
Amen. Perfect. Nailed it.

Rob Paterson (45:11.805)
Yeah.

Danny Parmelee (45:34.167)
Pastors are constantly comparing themselves and they need to just focus on just faithfully following the call to what God has called them to. Not what God has called the next person to or whatever. And so, yeah, that's the biggest message that I'm trying to, hopefully, that brings freedom for them to do what God's called them to do.

Rob Paterson (45:57.278)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (45:57.724)
man, that's great. Well, thank you, Danny, for your time, for your generosity in this. And I know at least three people will take advantage of it because they're on the call right now. But yeah, we do appreciate it. And to all our listeners, we really do encourage you to take advantage of this. This is a very generous offer. Through other organizations, I've seen charged thousands and thousands of dollars for this.

Danny Parmelee (46:07.331)
There you go.

Jason Allison (46:21.258)
And so we appreciate that. And we appreciate you, our listeners. If you don't mind, take a minute and hit the subscribe button, follow us, share us as much as you can so that more people can be exposed to generous leaders like Danny. And we appreciate all of that. Have a wonderful week and we'll talk to you next week.