Books to Read in 2025!

In this episode of the Church Talk podcast, Jason, Rob, and Courtney discuss various impactful books that can aid church leaders and members in their spiritual journeys. They emphasize the importance of reading widely, exploring diverse perspectives, and understanding cultural contexts. The conversation covers recommendations for leadership, team building, and engaging with the Old Testament, while also addressing contemporary issues facing the church today. In this conversation, the speakers delve into the challenges faced by Gen Z, particularly the meaning crisis and the search for purpose. They discuss influential authors and their works that provide insights into navigating faith and understanding the supernatural. The conversation also touches on the ethics of beauty as a guiding principle in problem-solving and the transformative power of literature in shaping perspectives. The speakers share their favorite books and the impact these have had on their lives and ministries, concluding with an invitation for listeners to share their own recommendations.

Books Mentioned: (Share yours with us!! - jason@churchtalkproject.com)

Jason

1. De-Sizing the Church (Karl Vaters)
2. Future Church (Will Mancini)
3. Wisdom for Faithful Reading (John Walton)
4. Lead (Paul David Tripp)
5. The Wood Between the Worlds (Brian Zahnd)

Courtney

1. Liturgical Mission/ Ever Ancient Ever New (by Winfield Bevins)
2. Bearing God's Name (by Carmen Imes)
3. Living in Wonder (by Rod Dreher)
4. The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God (by Justin Brierly)
5. The Air We Breathe (by Glen Scrivener) 
6. The Ethics of Beauty by (Timothy Patitsas)

Rob

1. The 6 Types of Working Genius (Pat Lencioni)
2. The Seven Frequencies of Communication (Erwin McManus)
3. Purple Cow & Free Prize Inside (and really anything)  (Seth Godin)
4. Blue Like Jazz (Donald Miller)
5. Homiletic Moves & Structures  (David Buttrick)
6. Slaves, Women, & Homosexuals  (William J. Webb)

00:00 Introduction to Meaningful Reads
05:55 The Importance of Diverse Reading
11:46 Books for Leadership and Team Building
18:08 Exploring the Old Testament
23:51 Cultural Context and Spiritual Issues
24:20 Understanding the Meaning Crisis for Gen Z
26:05 Exploring the Supernatural Worldview
28:20 Influential Authors and Their Impact
30:09 Books That Changed Perspectives
34:25 The Ethics of Beauty and Problem Solving
38:21 Before and After: Transformative Books
45:30 Closing Thoughts and Future Recommendations

Follow us on Insta @churchtalkproject. www.churchtalkproject.com

Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01.048)
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Church Talk podcast with Rob and Courtney and myself, Jason. We're so glad that you have joined us again this week. We thought we'd start today by really introducing some ideas, some books that we have read that have been meaningful to us, or maybe that we want to read, just to give you some suggestions of things in 2025.

What are some recommended books that we thought, hey, these could be helpful to you if you're a leader, if you're a pastor, if you're part of a local church, this could be a great thing for you. So I ask the crew to come up with some books. But before we dive into that, Rob, Courtney, mean, we're recording towards the end of January. This will drop in February. I don't know about you, but it's like zero degrees here where I'm recording. I'm kind of in a bad mood because of it.

Rob Paterson (00:51.634)
Ha

Courtney (00:52.405)
you

Jason Allison (00:55.214)
What's going on with you guys?

Courtney (00:59.027)
Yeah, we're in the below freezing temps all day where I am too, which is like abnormal for where we are. So it's like not going to get above freezing today at all. so, but hopefully we, I think I'll make it like, you know, Ted needs to learn how to go to the bathroom faster and I'll make it for sure. but I don't think we'll end up. Yeah, that's true.

Jason Allison (00:59.128)
Courtney?

Jason Allison (01:07.23)
are you gonna make it?

Rob Paterson (01:15.25)
Mm.

Jason Allison (01:17.314)
And Ted's your husband,

Rob Paterson (01:19.772)
Ha ha ha ha.

Courtney (01:22.461)
I think we'll end up missing snow because there's no, you know, precipitation plans. So we'll see. But we're supposed to have really cold temperatures all week.

Rob Paterson (01:30.492)
Yeah. And you know, it's crazy, Jason, I am like 70, 80 minutes north of you, which just means it's colder where I am typically by a degree, maybe. And so, but we're, we're the same. know, here's what I think it's going to boil down to. If the Buckeyes win the national championship game tonight, which that kind of lets people know the exact date we're recording on, you know, it doesn't matter how cold it is outside. We'll have warmth in our hearts. And if they lose, you know,

It doesn't matter when spring springs, you know, there'll be just bitter, bitter cold, you know, eternally for us all. Actually, Courtney's like, I don't give a rip about that game, but you know, we're not going to talk about that.

Jason Allison (02:07.48)
Yeah, and.

Courtney (02:10.621)
No.

Rob Paterson (02:15.506)
Uh, Hey, so guys, I, I, I was thinking a couple of thoughts, Jason, I didn't get your permission to share one of these cause it's, it's kind of related to you, but it's really more related to us. So there was, there was an incident that happened over the last, I don't know, like five years at one point where, know, you kind of like were on the verge of getting canceled by a person or group of people because you shared one quote. Right. From an author.

who like was viewed as in some ways heretical. And so then all of a sudden you were guilty by association, you know, and so you were maybe a borderline heretic. And it's funny because like there are some authors out there who every book they release, I read and not just a handful. And it's interesting for me, I had a professor in college and he was very conservative.

we even, you know, we even had some very strong kind of difficult conversations about theological matters that he and I didn't necessarily see eye to eye on. and which were great and helped me kind of in some formative years, but he always had this great quote that I think is worth sharing before we go into, know, a bunch of books that we have read recently, or even for maybe for some of them decades ago and they still kind of.

You know, stick with us and help us and kind of ring true in some way, or form. but here, here's what he always said. If everyone in your library thinks just like you, one of you is unnecessary. And it was, it was his way of encouraging us to read broadly, to expose ourselves to ideas and thoughts, because we'll be better. And even if we don't change our minds or change our opinions, the truth is.

Jason Allison (03:51.516)
Eh.

Rob Paterson (04:08.524)
you know, it actually helps us understand the kind of, you know, more the fullness of the thought, the conversation, whatever. And, yeah. So I just, I mean, I just think that's pretty cool. I think sometimes, especially in the church, especially in ministry, you know, we can view certain books or authors or ideas as that's too dangerous. You know, if I read that, it's like a slippery slope that's gonna

Jason Allison (04:35.822)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (04:38.118)
you know, destroy my theology and, and, know, I'm likely going to end up in the, you know, maybe not quite the hot part of hell, but at least a bad place in the end. And it's like, you know, trust me, I have read very, very widely and broadly and from some of those authors that would fall into that camp. And I believe it's only ever helped me to be more conversant. It's actually.

It's exposed me to thinking that I never even knew existed, which was again a benefit and a blessing. And a lot of times it actually helps me to know why I actually still believe what I've always believed. and so, yeah, it's just, I, I, I just want to encourage our readers. might kind of walk by a book and go, you know, I'm drawn to that. I'd like to read that, but that's, you know, that's outside the bounds. That's dangerous. I would encourage you pick it up.

Jason Allison (05:17.582)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (05:33.444)
read it and see how God might want to use that to do some things in your mind, your heart, your life.

Jason Allison (05:39.33)
Yeah, no, those are great words Rob. I appreciate that because I share that sentiment and I'm pretty sure Courtney does as well because she's probably more heretical than me. Really, I mean. man, I'll have to see if I can find a sound effect for heresy alert. I don't I don't even know what that would look like. Yeah.

Courtney (05:51.835)
So get ready guys, heresy alert coming in this episode.

Rob Paterson (05:54.322)
We need a sound effect for that Jason.

Rob Paterson (06:04.69)
like a siren or something.

Jason Allison (06:08.49)
Okay, well, I'll see what I can do in that realm. So with that thought, which I think is great, which I think you said you had two thoughts and that was that one or was that both of them?

Rob Paterson (06:21.562)
so I just gave the thought and then gave that quote. really like, I think that quote's kind of cool, you know? Yeah.

Jason Allison (06:25.246)
Okay, okay. No, it's perfect. No, definitely perfect. I will kick it off and I invited the crew to, you know, three or four books and of course I started with five so they're making fun of me for being an overachiever but I'll just list as we go.

Courtney (06:27.839)
Yeah, it was,

Courtney (06:41.557)
I think I actually just had two to three and then you came back with five. So I think that's where we started out.

Jason Allison (06:47.83)
Okay. All right. So I'll, I'll start. Well, if we don't get to all of mine, that's okay because it's my fault, but I'll start and we'll talk some of these. may just mention and move on. And then some of them, Hey, we'll, know, maybe we'll take a minute and say why it was, it was so, so impactful, so good. So I'm going to start with Carl Vader's. He wrote a book called de-sizing the church.

Rob Paterson (06:59.73)
Thank you.

Jason Allison (07:14.698)
And I just, that book has been, it's one of those books that it kind of shakes the foundation of what you thought was true in a lot of ways. But also it was very informative because he works through the church growth movement. Like it's where it came from, you know, how it evolved and changed over time and what it looked like in America and how some of it's very unhealthy, some of it's healthy. You know, he doesn't like throw it out.

and condemn it, but he also says, hey, maybe there's some things we need to think about. And if we look at the foundations of this, it's going to help us really begin to understand how do we discern where the church is, where our church is, what we need to do moving forward. So that was one and a couple of people that I recommended to texted me later and said, thank you. This is now wrecking me. And now I have to rethink a whole bunch of stuff, which in my mind means it was a great book.

Courtney (08:12.853)
Yeah, that was one the ones you recommended to me last year, Jason, in one of our first meetings together. And it was, I agree, ditto. It is awesome. So read it, people.

Jason Allison (08:18.52)
How yeah.

Rob Paterson (08:22.546)
Cool. Courtney, what's your first one?

Courtney (08:26.591)
So I'm going to start like anybody who's listened to the podcast where I've talked for more than one episode has probably heard me mention liturgy and implementing that in the life of the church and kind of restoring ourselves to some of the historic church calendar, historic ways of worshiping. And they might think, well, how is she going to do that in a church plant? Because we do kind of know church plant in this kind of one seeker sensitive model. And how is she going to get people to do that? And if I wanted to do that, what would that look like? I'm not becoming an Anglican church. I'm Baptist dog on it.

And so so I like to say that my spirit pastor is this writer named Winfield Bevens. You know, like we said, there are some people who every book they write, we're going to read it. And he is the director of church planting at Asbury Theological Seminary. They have this church planting center and he has I'm going to hold up just this one book ever ancient, ever new. But then he also has another book called Liturgical Mission that talks about planting a church that is centered on liturgy and some of ancient historic spiritual practices of the church.

But this Ever Ancient Ever New is a really good kind of look through lots of different churches who've tried, who've done this very thing in a number of different ways and why it's appealing to like my generation and younger. So it's really helpful if you just want to get a snapshot of a bunch of different churches who've implemented it, see what they did, see how like the feedback and all that kind of stuff. So I would say Winfield Bevan's Ever Ancient Ever New or liturgical mission, whichever way you want to jump into that.

Rob Paterson (09:45.838)
Okay.

Jason Allison (09:52.876)
Yeah, I love that. just so we will, as long as you guys send me, because I'm not writing all this down, you got to send me your list so I can put it in the show notes of and links to get these. But yeah, Rob's not going to because that's the way he is. But I'll remember yours, Rob. One thing I would so I just before we started recording, you I said I sent you a link to Carrie Newhoff's latest.

Rob Paterson (09:53.863)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (10:18.042)
where he talks about five disruptive trends in 2025. And we'll discuss that maybe at a later episode, but one of his things was Gen Z is not, they're not coming to church. Like they started, it looked like, wait, they are. And now they're not. Courtney, you're not Gen Z, but you're right in the middle millennial, right? I'm, anything that starts to connect with them.

Courtney (10:38.633)
Right. But like I was a youth minister to Gen Z. So I do kind of, you know, know how they think a little bit more. Yeah.

Jason Allison (10:47.382)
right in any way, shape or form is something we got to think about. Rob, what do you get?

Rob Paterson (10:52.338)
Yeah, it's so good. All right, so I'm going to go since I'm going third, I'm going to go I'm going to give you two books because they kind of go together in this little group. So I'm I'm kind of a little bit in this respect, a mystery wrapped in an enigma because, you know, like when I was in college, when I was in seminary, you know, people be like, hey, come study with us. I can't do that. It's got to be quiet. I got to be by myself.

You know, I can pack all that into my mind. I can remember it. It's totally fine. But when there's people in noise, I get distracted and I want to hang out and I don't learn anything in that respect. But in my life, you know, doing things in community, like, you know, some people are really into video games. You would never catch me sitting at home alone playing a video game. Now someone came over and said, Hey, want to play a video game or,

if I get a chance to hang out with somebody I know and like, we're like playing a game, fine. I'll do that in community. You know, it's, I remember in a denomination, I was a part of, they talked about the evils of social drinking and, in my own head, I always thought, you know, I'm not, I'm not as worried about the person who goes out for dinner and has a drink with a friend. I'm more worried about the person who's doing it privately and secretly and hides it under the cover of darkness, much higher likelihood. Right. So for me,

Every year I read multiple books with my staff and to start the year we always want to do one that helps us just to learn and grow and understand more about ourselves and each other and how we fit together as a team. So last year, I'll give the two books last year's and this year's, last year we started the year with Patrick Lencioni's book, The Six Types of Working Genius.

Jason Allison (12:42.232)
Working gene, yeah, that's a great one.

Rob Paterson (12:45.306)
And it was so good, right? Cause it's basically like six, six ways that we, are wired to work to that. If we do them for very long, they will take life from us to that we can do like, and it doesn't really kill us and it doesn't really give us life, but we can do them. And then to that give us life and it's kind of our gift, our gold. and that was again, a really helpful thing for my team to go through. this year, we've been reading, urban McManus's.

the seven frequencies of communication. and it basically, you know, he kind of in, in the way that Erwin does and kind of an artsy way. Yeah. He talked a little bit about it, before it launched last summer at the global leadership summit. He, he in his talk, referenced this, but yeah, there's different, different ways that people communicate. like for example, one of them is like a healer, you know, like if you're, if you have the healer frequency,

you know, your understanding and you care like people like this, maybe in healthcare or, you know, maybe counselors, if they just kind of naturally gravitate toward that. And we can access all of these things, even though we have a primary one and really a top three, we can learn how to speak in these different ways. And so that's, we're, we're a few chapters from the end of that right now, but it has very small chapters. And again, it's, it's a quick read.

and doing it in community has been as good. And both of those books actually have tests that you can pay to take that will help you determine, you know, where you fall in the spectrum. So again, just really, really good, really helpful team building things. If you have some high level volunteers, a staff, elders, a leadership team, whatever, two really good books to read with those groups.

Jason Allison (14:25.208)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (14:36.27)
So which frequency are you? Did you take the test?

Rob Paterson (14:40.578)
yeah. my number one is the seer, like kind of vision. Like I, I see things that most people tend not to.

Jason Allison (14:48.834)
Yeah, nice. I can see that. mean, no, no, no pun intended actually, but you know, OK. Those are good. I like that rub. So I'm going to. I'm going to move with my next one away from the leadership and kind of team building stuff and one that I read last towards the end of last year that really, especially as we move towards Easter, this this might be a great book for some pastors and.

Rob Paterson (14:50.79)
Yeah.

Courtney (14:51.421)
Yeah, I can see that. My pun was intended.

Rob Paterson (14:56.558)
You

Jason Allison (15:16.768)
It was just anyone actually to get it's called The Wood Between the Worlds and it's by Brian Zahn. And it is so good because he looks at the cross and it's like meditations on the cross, but he sees them from other angles and perspectives. know, I don't know. We Protestants get stuck in the atonement theory as like the only way to think about the cross. And we forget that there's multiple other ones that are listed in scripture.

This is why I get called a heretic, I guess, sometimes. But, know, we, we, we work through these and it's just some great meditations on it. It really got me thinking about things from a different angle. And like you said, Rob earlier, if you're not thinking beyond yourself, if you're not reading beyond what you already agree with, then how are you ever learning and growing? So that one was a big one for me.

Rob Paterson (16:08.375)
Yeah and Jason I just to echo that you know and I was saying this yesterday to a group of people you know here's what happens like if there's if there's something going on in life in your work in your church and there's a group of people who are for and there's a group of people who are against the problem is the four people talk to each other and the against people talk to each other and we don't we do that way more than we talk as a whole

And so all of a sudden now we exist in an echo chamber that only kind of creates this confirmation bias, right? Where we just, know that we are right in the people who disagree with us are wrong where, you know, if we actually engaged more broadly, we would probably go, you know what? I think I still have some good points and I like my position, but you know, there are some points on the other side too. You know, I mean, so it's helpful. It's healthy. It's mature to, you know,

Jason Allison (17:03.82)
How un-American of you to think like that, Rob.

Courtney (17:05.365)
you

Rob Paterson (17:06.477)
I know.

Jason Allison (17:09.122)
I know you got those Canadian roots. All right, Courtney, what do you got next?

Courtney (17:15.113)
Yeah, so mine is not in that vein, but my next one is, you know, going to be kind of Old Testament related. Again, people know me. They're like, okay, this is coming. So my next one is Carmen Im's book, Bearing God's Name. And it's a relatively short, approachable book that you could like lead a small group through. But I think a lot of times we wonder like, what do we even do with that Old Testament? How does that relate to my Christian life now? And

Rob Paterson (17:34.514)
you

Courtney (17:43.953)
And so she did her dissertation on the 10 commandments. And this is kind of just an approachable way of looking at the 10 commandments and applying them to our life now that gives you kind of the way that we should approach and read the Old Testament as Christians, which is really great because a lot of times that just feels confusing. I know to a lot of people. So I have recommended this book a ton. I've read through it myself and led Bible studies through it myself. And I really appreciate Carmen Iams and her teaching. So Carmen Iams.

Jason Allison (18:08.942)
Yeah, I feel like I heard her interviewed recently about that concept and so forth. And it was probably on a podcast that would get me in trouble.

Rob Paterson (18:21.785)
Hahaha!

Courtney (18:22.459)
She's around all over the place. Like she was on Sean McDowell's podcast recently. Yeah, she's around.

Jason Allison (18:24.076)
She is, no, she's great. Yeah. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (18:28.57)
Nice. So, for me, I'm going to, I'm going to give a book now that, you know, kind of falls outside of the Christian umbrella, so to say, because there too, you know, I think sometimes we're like, well, I'm a, I'm a pastor, I'm a church leader, I'm a Christian. So I should always get my books from the Christian bookstore from a Christian author or whatever. And I don't know, you know, I think this guy actually might be a person of faith, but this falls into kind of the business marketing.

world. And this is an author at some point, I just, you know, I kind of felt like I, Hey, I hear what you're saying. But for four years, everything this guy released, I bought the book. And his name is Seth Godin. And he's kind of a marketing genius. I think the first book of his that I read was called Purple Cow. And the kind of the opening metaphor is, know, like when you're driving kind of through the, you know, mountains and see all these

fields off to the side loaded with cows, you don't notice. But if you drove by and you saw a purple cow, that would stand out. know, you would, it would, you would pay attention to that. And, and he's encouraging people to think about whatever their, their product is, whatever they do, you know, to have it stand out in some way that is catchy and positive and, and different. And so one book that Seth Godin wrote was called free prize inside again, just get

fun, fun stuff, good thinking. And I think sometimes we think, well, we have the greatest message ever. know, people should just come, people should just want to hear it. So we don't need to spruce that up. We don't, you know, like we can just, you know, preach in super boring ways and like never ever, ever think about how to get the word out for our churches. And I think reading some business books and again, Seth Godin's great for like marketing. And I'm not encouraging you to put like a huge sign on your church with flashy things.

Fireworks that go off every however often but thinking through You know how to sort of build quality and appeal into what you do And how to get word out just about the you know, the incredible message that is the church we have Is is a good thing for us to at least consider And I think it'll you know, it will expose more people to the gospel and and that can be a good thing

Jason Allison (20:55.554)
Yeah, no, that's really good, Rob. I've read a lot of his stuff too. I get his email every day, you know, and it's just good stuff. He's very practical in so many ways. I was thinking, and I can't remember if we've talked about this before, Courtney, I don't know if you've heard of it, but in near Cincinnati, Ohio on the north side, as you're going down I-75, there's a church that had, they used to call him Touchdown Jesus. It was a 90 foot statue.

of Jesus, actually might have been taller than that. And it was just massive and it had his hands up. And as you drove by and I was thinking maybe, you here at the church I'm at, we should do something like that. Cause we're right on a, you know, pretty main therapy. If we just had this giant, of course that, that did get struck by lightning and burned down. So maybe we should think about that. But, there's a, there's a comedian, old comedian guy out there wrote a song about it called butter Jesus.

because it was the same color as butter, like when you looked at it. then he wrote it, had to write us a verse later about it burning to the ground. anyway, YouTube butter Jesus and you'll see what I'm talking about. Anyway, so Rob, is that what you're telling me I should do? Build a big touchdown Jesus in front of the church. That's what we need.

Rob Paterson (22:15.206)
You know, I would pray about that.

Jason Allison (22:16.846)
That was the best answer. all right. So I'll throw one more out. And I'm going to I'm going to tag team with Courtney here. The Old Testament. I read you guys keep holding your books up. I guess I'll hold mine up to John Walton, wisdom for faithful reading. It's kind what you were saying, Courtney, you know, just a different author helping.

Courtney (22:19.571)
Nuh-uh.

Jason Allison (22:43.778)
Hey, how do we understand the Bible on its own terms and not try to read our 21st century stuff into it? It's really good stuff challenges you and that's, what I like. Okay. Courtney, go ahead.

Rob Paterson (22:55.538)
Mm.

Courtney (22:57.235)
Yeah, so my next, I guess, three, because I mean, it's like I had put in three books, but actually it works out that it was like five books total, Jason, but they kind of are all revolving around the same idea. So I'll just say them all at one time. And one of them is kind of like a book plus a podcast. I don't know. Can we recommend another podcast on our podcast?

Jason Allison (23:11.95)
Go for it.

Jason Allison (23:16.59)
No, no, we can as long as they also listen to ours and then we get them to recommend us.

Rob Paterson (23:19.748)
You

Courtney (23:23.901)
Right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So we've talked about living in wonder here a couple of episodes. And so that's a really great book and really just helps get you oriented around this cultural moment. I'm like, why are we having political polarization and things like that? And a lot of them are deeper issues. Jason's holding an acan. A lot of them are deeper issues than what it seems on the surface and kind of and it really is a spiritual problem. And how do we.

Rob Paterson (23:25.104)
Yes.

Courtney (23:51.027)
like begin to view that from a spiritual lens instead of just viewing it on the surface as if it's a secular problem that we have to deal with within the church. But if you, as I've begun ministering, like we are in a largely post-Christian context, which means that a lot of these things are really like rising to the surface for us in ways that are different than some of my friends who might be in more entrenched areas in the Bible belt. But I do think that this, what has been dubbed the meaning crisis is coming to lots of churches and

that again, Gen Z feels it very acutely because they are kind of at the end of like, you know, dream big dreams and make your own meaning in the world. And then it's like, wait, I can't do any of that. And I don't even know what dreams to dream. And so they have this like loss of meaning and direction and purpose in their life. So living a wonder kind of would help help with that. But then also Justin Briarley has a really great book called The Surprising Rebirth and Belief in God, kind of after new atheism.

The peak of this meeting crisis is kind of this rebirth or re-enchantment as Rod Reir would call it in kind of understanding the supernatural worldview. And Justin Briarly's podcast goes with the book. And now I would say that it really is a podcast that also has a book, whereas initially it was launched as a book with some additional podcast episodes, but now it just is kept going and it's really great. And every episode is amazing and is really answering a lot of those questions that

Rob Paterson (24:58.921)
you

Rob Paterson (25:05.681)
Mm.

Courtney (25:16.061)
younger Christians are asking, you know, like, do we do with violence in the Bible? What do we do with truth? And how do we kind of square scientific truth with what we would claim is truth from the Bible and things like that. And so it's a very good podcast. And then also, Surprising Rebirth and Belief in God is the same title as the book.

Jason Allison (25:29.55)
What's it called? What's the podcast? okay. He's got like four podcasts. That's why I was trying to remember which one.

Courtney (25:36.925)
He does. Yes. Yes. So the podcast that goes with the book, the podcast that goes with the book. Yeah. You know, he's just a radio show host. So he gets like, you know, he's like on a bunch of different things. But yeah. And the other book is called The Air We Breathe by Glenn Scrivener. Both of those guys are British and I think they also are further entrenched in the post-Christian context. And Glenn Scrivener talks about like kind of how to do low tide evangelism is what he would call it. Like, you know, when the tide is out for Christianity, how do you do that?

Jason Allison (25:40.6)
Gotcha.

Courtney (26:05.735)
And the air we breathe is really about just kind of those assumptions that we have in the West that we don't realize make us very weird to the rest of the world. So it kind of reframes that and shows us, these are ways that we think that are assumed and just are not the way that those in the majority world might think about things. So I really like both all three of those books together form this really nice trio to kind of get your head around the meaning crisis and kind of what Gen Z

or younger millennials are facing and thinking about. Even if they haven't articulated it yet, they're thinking about it.

Jason Allison (26:38.2)
Yeah. Yeah. No, that is great. Courtney, you use the word weird and you know, in the living in wonder book, he he actually uses that's like a term they use for North American people in general, but because it stands for weird, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic. Weird. Yeah. what did I say? Western. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (26:38.438)
Hmm.

Courtney (27:00.925)
Western educated. Yeah. You said weird educated. Yeah.

Jason Allison (27:07.852)
Weird means Western educated. Yeah. So it was, that's a, an interesting way to look at things. That's for sure. Cause it shows we, we see everything as the, we are at the center and we forget that we are not and that the rest of the world.

Rob Paterson (27:19.6)
Hmm. Yes, no, we don't. Yeah, that's our that's a firm belief in in, you know, the United States of America. We are so ethnocentric. This is the only spot in the world where when people come here from other countries, we say, learn how to speak English. And then when we go on a trip, a vacation, a missions trip, whatever to their country, we're like, you should speak English, right? It's like

Courtney (27:21.759)
Mm-hmm

Courtney (27:30.44)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (27:31.673)
yeah. Yeah.

Courtney (27:46.26)
No no.

Rob Paterson (27:49.094)
Yeah, we are awful.

Jason Allison (27:49.1)
Yeah. Yes. Yes. Rob.

Courtney (27:51.165)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (27:53.42)
all right. So almost 28 minutes into a, you know, 45 minute podcast. hopefully this is the point where, you know, people are gonna like cancel me or, know, you guys become guilty by association and end up canceling us. you know, hopefully they've stopped listening already or got busy or, whatever. so I'm going to give an oldie, but a goodie and Jason, this is kind of your fault just because, you know, you threw the whole.

five books on us. I was like gazing over my shelf to say, Hey, what book can I pull? So I'm going to, I'm going to get to an old book, but I'll start by again, saying more things that probably will potentially get us in hot water with some people. earlier, you know, I mentioned that there's some authors that like, I just read their stuff because they helped me to think differently. They exposed me to thoughts and ideas that I think are helpful as I process stuff. So,

I read everything by Pete Enns, you know, in particular because the first book of his I read, The Bible Tells Me So, helped me to understand way more of how the Bible was written and how we should think about and approach it in ways that, again, your typical evangelical, you know, writer or scholar, you know, just doesn't go there. And it was, again, very, very helpful.

And allowing me to understand maybe when I see inconsistencies or things in the Bible, just, you know, like kind of the primitive roots that the early writers would have kind of come from. Another one is Rob Bell. I read all of his stuff, you know, early on. And that's true to this day. He really releases a new book. I read it. And so I just like how he thinks. I was never super into his speaking.

and again, that wasn't like, didn't like him. It's just, but I, his books for me were better and very creative. So, that leads me to probably the OG heretic that when, know, this book came out, people were talking about it, but they talk about it a little bit secretly. Donald Miller's book blue like jazz, non-religious thoughts on Christian spirituality. and so, you know, just him and now he, you know, writes for his company story brand to help people again.

Rob Paterson (30:09.66)
think about market launch kind of business ideas. So he's not even really writing much in this realm anymore. But, you know, for just to someone to talk about going to a secular college and how, how his faith played out there and just, you know, all the stories and ideas for me, again, when I read that book, it was a game changer that helped me to think about life and ministry and faith in a way that was broader.

And so yeah, what a great book, still sits on my shelf, you know.

Jason Allison (30:44.684)
Yeah, I think I have three copies of it on my shelf because I always want one to be able to give away if I need to. You know, the other book that he wrote during that same timeframe was Through Painted Deserts, which I think it might have been a different they changed the name, but same thing where he just really made me think about the life right from a different perspective. I love books like that.

Rob Paterson (31:07.186)
Jason, think through Painted Deserts, I might be wrong, but I think that was his first book that just didn't take off. And then after Blue Like Jazz and maybe what was the other one? The Words We Say and da da da, like it was a long title. That was another great book. I think they re-released that first book because he got popular enough. People were like, we want more. He's like, let me just re-release this. Cause it was good stuff, but nobody knew.

Jason Allison (31:18.124)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:29.326)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I actually got to spend an evening with him back, I don't know, 10 years ago when all that was happening. He came to the college that's here in town. so he's, he's just a very interesting person. Anybody who thinks like that, kind like you said, the Rob Bell, the Pete ends that even if you don't agree theologically with everything, the way they think it just, man, I love being around people like that. Maybe that's why I like hanging out with you guys.

Courtney (31:29.938)
WP

Rob Paterson (31:46.546)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (31:57.004)
Yep.

Jason Allison (31:58.606)
You're just weird enough that I like you. I don't know. Maybe that's how it works. No, no, you're not. You're not like that at all. mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not not not in the least. All right, so I'll I've got two two books left because you guys grouped yours and I don't know if you're out. You still got another one? OK, well, let me do one here. I'm just going to.

Rob Paterson (32:02.221)
Does that mean we're western educated?

Rob Paterson (32:07.462)
Just pure weird.

Courtney (32:07.888)
Yeah, the R does not apply. The rich, like, you know.

Rob Paterson (32:11.217)
Yeah.

Courtney (32:21.941)
V

Rob Paterson (32:22.96)
I have one left. Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:28.298)
mention it in passing its future church by Will Mancini. If you go back a year ago to our podcast, you can hear Will actually talk about it. It's just good stuff. Whether or not you like Will Mancini, what he wrote there is really good. So go for it.

Rob Paterson (32:45.67)
Yeah. Well, and Jason, that Derek Sanford, you know, multiple time podcast episode guest. I remember, you know, I think we both read it after he recommended it. I was aware of the book, but he's like, man, I read that book and it wrecked me and I had to start thinking about some things I didn't want to have to think about. So yeah, cool. mean, high, recommendation.

Jason Allison (33:11.372)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, I'll just do my last one, Rob, and then you can bring us home. Because Courtney, you already told all yours, right?

Courtney (33:11.519)
Mm-hmm.

Courtney (33:20.233)
I did already do it, but you know, I can like just go with book recommendations. So if you need me.

Jason Allison (33:23.81)
You could, I know. That's the problem. You get us talking about books. We could talk for hours and yeah.

Courtney (33:29.194)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:30.204)
Yeah. So Jason, think you should give yours and then Courtney, you should talk about the book about beauty. Cause I think that our listeners need to hear about that. then I'll.

Courtney (33:39.697)
I almost thought about that. I was like, man, I don't want to drop a 700 page bomb on this. So, OK, I'll do it. I'll do it. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:44.466)
No, you should. Yes. So go Jason, then Courtney, and then I can kind of.

Jason Allison (33:47.234)
Yes. Okay. Well, so mine is I'm I just started it. So but it was highly recommended to me by multiple people and it's the title is lead and it's by Paul David trip. It's so far. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. It's really helpful. If you're if you're leading anything, especially a church, this is a book you should have on your shelf and you should be familiar with. So there you go, Rob.

Rob Paterson (34:13.49)
Jason, our lead team is going through that book together right now. So that's good. Yeah. No, no, we're going to Courtney. She's going to drop a 700 page bomb on us and then I'll end up.

Jason Allison (34:19.692)
Nice. look at that.

Courtney (34:25.813)
Okay. Then he'll close it out. So if we're like just naming authors that we like to read every book that they write, I would say, Nijay Gupta and Matthew Bates are some of those for me. So Nijay Gupta's last two books, Tell Her Story and Strange Religion, really great. Matthew Bates has a new book coming out called Beyond the Salvation Wars, which just sounds really exciting. So yeah, Jason's holding up the strange religion. But this 700 page bomb that Rob wants me to talk about is called The Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Petitsas.

Jason Allison (34:26.82)
yeah.

Jason Allison (34:46.168)
Got it right there.

Courtney (34:56.253)
it's a Greek name, you so spelt like you spell tzatziki or something. And, and so he is an orthodox writer and theologian. But this book is really talking about an ethic of beauty and how we kind of begin to approach problems and what our first mode of problem solving typically is. And so if we're thinking about the normal way that we kind of

Rob Paterson (35:04.722)
.

Courtney (35:19.743)
classify something as good is like the truth, the good, and the beautiful. Like that's the pinnacle of all reality is God is the truth, the good, and the beautiful. And that sometimes we lean into truth first methods. Sometimes we lead into goodness first methods. But that really beauty is a summation of the truth first and the good first. But there is this like ineffability around beauty that like you can't describe it, but you just know when you found it. And sometimes you can't even describe why you shouldn't do something, but you just know it's not beautiful.

and it wouldn't lead to a good conclusion. And so that should be kind of a driving ethic. So the reason why, and it's a 700 page book, but it's written like a conversation so you can read through it quicker than you think you can. It's not like loaded down with footnotes. And he applies that method to a bunch of different issues. So trauma and therapy, he applies it to like city planning and all kinds of different issues. But if you think about issues in the church,

Like we have truth first approaches to problems in the church. We're like, this is what the Bible says and it's true. So you just should submit to it and do it even if it doesn't, like even if there's maybe some beauty first reason why you're like, it doesn't fit in our context. And then we have goodness first methods where we kind of treat, and this kind of relates to bureaucracy or policies. Like where we treat the church like they're metrics and we can like just, if we just figure out the right metrics and adjust here and adjust there, then we'll get the outcome that we want.

And so if you pursue goodness first, then you treat the church more. He doesn't apply this to church, but this would be my presupposition. You treat the church more like a business. And sometimes you pursue growth over and against other things that would be more healthy for your church. But if you do a beauty first approach, you have the truth, which is the Bible. And you say you're working from the Bible and you have goodness, which is the proper way of doing things. But if something starts to get out of whack, then you're like, we don't know why it's out of whack, but maybe we should scale back and see.

know, and so that beauty is kind of leading you forward as you're moving through and solving different problems. So it's a great book. I like the way that he, The Ethics of Beauty by Timothy Petitsas. And they've had an issue recently, if you guys go want to go and buy that book. Someone on Amazon is like buying them from the publisher and then selling them for twice the price. So just go buy it from the publisher. It should

Rob Paterson (37:16.573)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (37:17.422)
What's it called again?

Jason Allison (37:31.03)
Yeah, yeah on Amazon it's currently the paperback is listed at $170.

Courtney (37:37.819)
Yeah, that's not how much it should cost. So just go buy it from the publisher. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:42.778)
Nice. Yeah, it's so good. Okay.

Jason Allison (37:44.118)
And yes, I'm trying to find what the publisher is and I just don't. There you go. OK.

Courtney (37:48.861)
It's St. Nicholas Press. St. Nicholas Press. Yeah, Santa printed it. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:51.568)
Yeah, Santa Santa Prince it. Yeah, shipping shipping is expensive and it takes a little while to get there unless you order it for on Christmas Eve and then it gets there really quickly and one day. Yeah, yeah. So you know, for my last book, I'm going to meander to get to the point and you guys might be like, yeah, we know because that's what you always do. My staff would say the same thing about me. So, you know, like in life.

Jason Allison (37:53.654)
Yeah, Santa. It's in North Pole.

Courtney (38:05.013)
Yeah, next day. Overnight.

Jason Allison (38:05.248)
next day.

Rob Paterson (38:21.106)
there are these sort of like before and after moments, right? Like if something happens, you know, like 9-11, right? Like life before 9-11, life after 9-11, like that was just a, things were different because it was such a, you know, and I kind of in my own life feel the same way about books. There are some books that how I thought, how I did life, how I did ministry were one way before and then different after.

And as part of that, I do want to mention two books because I was thinking one book, but then I thought, you know, that before and after thing, there was a book that changed my preaching. And I read it probably in my late twenties, early thirties, maybe. And like Courtney's book, it's long and it is very technical. So don't like go by this book thinking you're going to be inspired. You will learn a ton, but it's not like necessarily super inspirational.

But David G. Buttrick wrote a book called, Homiletic Moves and Structures, which is a very technical tome on preaching and how to think about preaching and how to preach. Two things about that that again changed things for me. One, he said, you know, and I did this man, I'd preach, I'd preach for 60 minutes, 70 minutes. I didn't care. I'd have all these old people in my church come to me and go, you remind us back when we were young and you know, and so I like would if.

If God has something to say, who are we to tell them how long, you know, it should, you know, like they would like say all these things that would of course embolden and fuel my insanity. and then this book was like, as a communicator, if anything you're doing is keeping you from communicating that's on you, not on your ears. And, and so I'm like, if preaching for 60 plus minutes causes people to tune out at some point, I can't just go.

You guys need to toughen up and listen to the Lord, you know, like that's on me, not on them. and then thinking about sermons as opposed to three great opener, three points in a closer, you know, just how those thoughts connect together and how like you should see them as moves, movements and, and, and how there should be flow and connection again, just very, very, very helpful. And then kind of the, here's the end, Jason, the book that,

Rob Paterson (40:42.884)
was really the first one that came to my mind when you said, Hey, let's give people some books to think about. when I was in seminary, this was like a very hot, controversial book in the theological world. And, one of my theology prof said, actually, this would have been our textbook had it been released by the time. so William Webb wrote a book called slaves, women, and homosexuals and,

And it's a hermeneutics book about like how to, you know, interpret scripture. And I love like he kind of, this was brand new for me. He kind of introduced something that he called the redemptive movement hermeneutic. So as you read through scripture, if it seems like, man, in the old Testament, it seemed like the Bible was saying this about a topic. And then, you know, uh, and then later on, it seemed to say something a little bit different. And then the new Testament, it seems to be saying something altogether different.

And so what do we do with that? What do we do when the Bible seems to be saying sometimes drastically different things about the same topic? And his point was, you know, anytime we see movement in the Bible, it is almost and almost always toward greater and greater measures of redemption. So, you know, like when the Bible sort of seems to almost endorse slavery and then it seems to maybe allow for slavery and then it's like, eh.

probably bad to have slaves, right? Like, you know, like there's this movement toward greater redemption. Same with its treatment of women. You know, like women were basically non-existent or property. And again, we see this movement toward greater redemption. And then how it treats homosexuality is actually different. And so again, I'll save the punchline if you want to get the book or read it. But that was so...

helpful for me in reading and thinking about and understanding again, parts of the Bible that seem to say different things and really not knowing how to reconcile that. I think Webb may have gotten fired from whatever school he was teaching at and went somewhere else when he wrote that book because there was so much heat that came from it. But again, for me, it was just a very helpful book. And as I read it, there was nothing that I read that I'm like, I mean, there books like that where I'm like, ooh.

Rob Paterson (43:05.228)
I can't say that. You know, there was really nothing in this book that felt like that to me. But man, super, super helpful.

Jason Allison (43:07.779)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (43:13.166)
Yeah. Oh, that's great. I, yeah, I, I love all these suggestions and the ones that I haven't read. Now I want to add them to my reading list for 2025. So, uh, at just a little note, this helps me. Maybe nobody else cares, but you know, I have a journal that I, that I use and at the back of my journal each year, I list the books that I either am reading or want to read, you know, and I just list them so that at the end of the year, I can look back and see, okay, here are the books I read.

you and I usually date when I finished each one of them and it just helps me stay connected. And know Rob, you're a big journal guy. I don't know if you have a list like that or not, but it's something that's, I just started doing a few years ago and man, it's been, it's nice when I go back and look and see, Hey, this is what I was doing thinking. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (44:01.51)
Yeah. And when you just said that that was super helpful, cause here's what I do. You know, if we're doing a podcast and somebody recommends book or, even this conversation. So here's my journal that's always beside me that I'm always scribbling notes in. And so what I'll do is just in the flow of it, I'll write that, I got to get this book. got to read this book. And then like three months later, when it hits my mind again, I'm like, you know, flipping around for 15 minutes to try. So

Courtney (44:23.861)
Mm.

Rob Paterson (44:27.684)
I'm going to start using the back page and writing these books down. Jason, thank you. That was like, that was worth this hour of my life.

Courtney (44:35.093)
Just handy tips and tricks.

Jason Allison (44:35.438)
Well, the only other tip or trick that I would give when it comes to reading is at the front of every book, I create my own index. So as I'm coming to things that I know I'm going to remember, I jot it down in the front. Like when you said weird, I just open to the front and hey, on page 20 of the book, that's where he defines it. So little things like that I've learned over the years that just helped me be more efficient.

Rob Paterson (45:04.475)
That's a great idea that I will never do.

Courtney (45:04.789)
That's invaluable too, Jason.

Jason Allison (45:05.014)
reader. Well, you know, well, okay. Well, we appreciate everyone taking the time to listen today. I hope a couple of these books will be helpful to you. I mean, I know they will be if you take the time to read them. We wouldn't have suggested them if they wouldn't. We appreciate you. We would love to hear from you. Send us an email of the top three or four or five books.

Courtney (45:09.763)
I'll do it. I'll do it.

Jason Allison (45:30.572)
that you would recommend or you read last year that made a difference or maybe that you plan to read this year. We would love to hear those and maybe we'll figure out a way. We'll post them on our social media. We'll do some things. I figure anytime we get leaders and pastors and just people reading good stuff, it's going to be good for everybody. So we appreciate you. We've got some great interviews lined up. We've got some great topics that we're going to talk about lined up. We're looking forward to just 2025 being a great year together.

You have an absolutely amazing week and we will see you soon. Take care.