Brian Dodd - Leading Leaders

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, hosts Jason, Rob, and Courtney welcome back Brian Dodd for his fourth appearance. They discuss Brian's new book, 'The Games Leaders Play,' exploring the gap between leadership knowledge and its application in real-world scenarios. Brian emphasizes the importance of personal communion with God for effective leadership and shares insights on the common traits of successful leaders. The conversation also delves into the unique challenges faced by pastors and how they can blend shepherding with visionary leadership. In this conversation, the speakers discuss the challenges pastors face when leading volunteers versus leading other leaders. They explore the importance of understanding the mindset of leaders, providing ten actionable strategies for pastors to effectively lead leaders, and the significance of continuous learning in leadership roles. The discussion also touches on the dynamics of leadership challenges and the necessity of fostering a culture of contribution over control.

Takeaways

• Brian Dodd's new book (Games Leaders Play) addresses the gap between leadership knowledge and application.
• Effective leaders are those who have spent time with God.
• Vision is about multiplying what you see, feel, and hear in ministry.
• Transformation in ministry is more important than mere transactions.
• Most pastors excel at leading volunteers but struggle with leading other leaders.
• Imposter syndrome can hinder pastors when interacting with more experienced leaders.
• Pastors should prioritize being a spiritual guide to leaders.
• Asking great questions is more valuable than providing answers.
• Involving leaders in decision-making makes them feel valued and invested.
• A clear and compelling vision attracts great leaders.
• Follow-up communication strengthens relationships with leaders.
• Leaders should be encouraged to contribute rather than control.

Keywords

leadership, church growth, personal communion, Brian Dodd, effective leadership, pastoral challenges, church vision, leadership principles, faithfulness, community impact, leadership, pastors, volunteers, leaders, church, mindset, strategies, challenges, continuous learning, community

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Transcript

Jason Allison (00:01)
Well, welcome back everybody to the church talk podcast with Rob and Courtney and Jason. And we have an amazingly wonderful special guest today that I am. I've just been excited about this for like weeks on end because this is actually we're going to have Brian Dodd on the podcast. This will be his fourth appearance. This is a record breaking accomplishment. And, you know, Rob, we

We may have to actually Courtney, you've got your own little classroom thing. We may have to bestow like a doctorate or something, an honorary doctorate on Brian for being part of our podcast this many times. Courtney, is that something you can do?

Courtney (00:45)
Yeah, I can create a certificate today, like an honorary, you know, church talk podcast, co-host title for Brian Dodd. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (00:54)
Hahaha. Ooooo.

Jason Allison (00:55)
Wow, that's exciting. Well,

for those of you that don't know, because you haven't listened to the podcast or you're just starting, Brian Dodd is going to be our guest today. And he has been blogging on the topic of leadership since about 2009. He is a senior consultant for Enjoy Stewardship Solutions, where he helps churches fully fund their mission and vision. I've actually

used him as a resource multiple times connecting him with churches. And that's been great. His blog, Brian Dodd on leadership is one of the top 10 leadership blogs. His newest book and we'll reference this. I don't know how much we'll talk about it because we get going off on rabbit trails, but his newest book, which I am about two thirds of the way through is the games leaders play how people just like you are making a difference in winning in athletics, business, faith and life.

Courtney (01:38)
you

Jason Allison (01:49)
And it was the number one leadership book on Kindle in December. Like that's phenomenal. And I can't, it just blows my mind, but we are honored to consider him a friend of the podcast. And this being your fourth time on the show, Brian, dude, welcome. We're so glad you're here.

Brian Dodd (02:07)
Well, I am thrilled to be here. And yes, I am definitely a friend of the podcast, a friend of you and Rob and, you know, Courtney, I never have enough friends. I'm always looking to add some. yeah, definitely. And look, if you want to make me an honorary member of the Converge Network and the podcast, I'm in. So I'll definitely take it. So it's it's a thrill to be here. And yeah, I can't wait to invest in your audience again. And, uh,

Courtney (02:20)
I'm willing to be a friend.

Rob Paterson (02:30)
Nice.

Brian Dodd (02:36)
Hopefully we're going to have some better leaders in an hour or so, 45 minutes, 30 minutes, however long we go. But whatever amount of time they give us, we hope we'll have some better leaders on the back end than we do when they got started.

Courtney (02:42)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (02:50)
That's so good. So Jason, I do have to make a small kind of tweak correction, whatever. So you said this was record breaking, but I think, you know, we've had a couple of guests on twice. So with this being his fourth time, this is really record smashing. mean, this is like a hundred percent more than our next closest group of guests. So, this is amazing. And, and Brian, that's right.

Brian Dodd (03:17)
Lap the field, lap the field.

Please tell me the people who are second is like Craig Groschel, Andy Stanley and people like that and I've lapped them. Okay, there you go, that'll work.

Rob Paterson (03:20)
Brian, think-

You did. You did.

Jason Allison (03:29)
Well, we

Courtney (03:29)
Yes. Yeah.

Jason Allison (03:31)
did have Andrew Stanley on. That's Andy's son. So I don't know if that's close enough, but he was only on once. you

Brian Dodd (03:33)
Okay. Okay. All right, that'll work.

Courtney (03:33)
Yeah

Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (03:40)
Yeah.

Hey, so Brian, the first couple of times you were on, we were talking all about like really how to fund your vision and all the steps that you had, which was so insightful and helpful for us personally and for our audience. And then the last time you were on, you talked about your book that was like your most recent book at that point in time. And then we got into conversations about health because you'd experienced some things and I was experiencing some things.

So with your brand new book, the games that leaders play, tell us a little bit about that.

Brian Dodd (04:14)
Yeah, so it's my fifth book and the question always begs, why another leadership book? You know, and here's what I tell people and I've written five of them. Okay, but here's what I tell people after the Bible and definitely after John Maxwell's 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, there really didn't need to be another leadership book written. Okay.

But since then I've written five of them. It's interesting. All five, I had a good reason for writing them. I don't ever look back on the previous four and think, wow, that was not a good reason to write one. But this was interesting. It was the first book I ever wrote that I kind of had a burden about. And the burden that I felt was this. There is no shortage of leadership content in the world.

and people have gotten massive mounts of leadership content. But whether it was the political season of 2024 or just other issues that are happening on a national level in terms of Christian leadership or business leadership or something like that, I just felt there was a massive gap between leadership knowledge and faithfulness and application to that knowledge.

And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna write a book that's probably not gonna have any new insight into it at all. Okay? But it is gonna contain hundreds of stories and antidotes of people who are actually winning in 2024 and 2025 in the area of leadership. So why you are...

pulling up your computer every day and you're reading all these scandals about pastors or 10 things pastors don't do well or why is there declining attendance in the church and all this stuff that you're reading. No, I'm going to give you something that's going to be, hey, here's a reminder. Here's a reminder in a very compelling way, a very repackaged, compelling way that says, no, there is great leadership in the world.

and lives are being changed and mission vision is being advanced. And here's those stories and here's the practical ways they're doing that. And by the way, you can do that too. And so I felt I needed to combat a national issue and a national narrative in kind of a ambush you, winsome cool type fashion.

Rob Paterson (06:56)
Mm.

Brian Dodd (07:03)
And that's why I wrote the book. And the response has been tremendous. I've been very pleased and I'm honored that lives are being changed and people are being encouraged. After your fifth book, that's what you really want is for lives to be changed. And yeah, just thrilled with how the book has been received and the impact it's having on people's lives.

Rob Paterson (07:16)
Mmm.

You know, Brian, I know Jason and Courtney. I'm sure they're chomping at the bit to ask you some questions, but I just want to say a few days ago I was like looking back through my journal and I had written some things down from one of our conversations. And one thing you said, I believe the last time we talked was in churches that you're in around the country. The thing that is common and all the ones that are really growing and making a big difference are that you can tell.

you know, from the preacher all the way down to the person making announcements to the person greeting you at the door, you can tell that they had spent time with Jesus that week. Like their faith is evident. And, and I just think, you know, as you're just describing this new book, like, you know, a lot of times we're like, well, I'm, not as good as so-and-so, or I'm not as skilled as, and man, I think the secret sauce really isn't, you know, how great we are in any area, but really how

connected we are as believers to the true source of life.

Brian Dodd (08:31)
Okay, so let me address that. And this is actually in the book, too. Okay, what are the common denominators of churches that are growing in 2024 and 2025? Okay, so a lot of times I'll get asked the question, does the Attractional Model still work? And my answer is yes and no. No in the fact that COVID stripped away all non-essentials.

If you've just because you put a rock band up there and a hazer and that kind of thing and some nice lights, that doesn't mean you're going to grow. Okay, now you still want to do things with excellence, but that does not mean you're going to grow. Here's where the Attractional Model is working and in Exodus 33 verses 7 through 11, there's this very famous concept called the Tent of Meeting.

And what would happen, Moses would construct a tent and he would separate from the people and spend time in the tent. A cloud would come down that God would inhabit and then God would spend time with Moses face to face and talk to Moses as a friend talks to a friend. Here's the interesting thing. The people would pitch their tents on the perimeter and worship. So why were they worshiping? God wasn't talking to them. He was talking to Moses.

Okay, but here's what they knew. They knew that when Moses left that tent, he would return to the people with a message from God about the issues of their life and what he wanted to do in their lives. That is Sunday morning. Here's where the Attractional Model works. If we show up on Sunday morning, in other words, we've pitched our tents all week, and now Moses is leaving his tent and coming to the people.

In other words, the pastor. And if we look at that platform and we say, that guy's been with God and he's got a message for me about the issues of my life. That's the number one thing that fast growing churches in America have is a group. Growing churches have a growing leader who have spent time with God. And people know it and people know the difference.

Jason Allison (10:48)
you

That's good. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (10:53)
Yeah.

Brian Dodd (10:55)
between somebody who, for lack of a better phrase, is winging it or hasn't totally submitted throughout the week or has been distracted throughout the week or something of that nature. And no, here's a guy that has spent time with God and talked to God and he's coming now. He has left his tent and coming to the people at nine o'clock on a Sunday morning and he's sharing with me what God shared in his personal tenon meeting.

Jason Allison (11:23)
Yeah.

Brian Dodd (11:23)
That's

the number one thing that growing churches in America need. So if I'm talking to somebody and they ask me, Brian, what do I need to grow my church? The first question I'm going to ask them is about their own personal communion, their personal ten a meeting and their personal quiet times and the time they spent with God. Are you growing? Well, if you're growing.

Rob Paterson (11:46)
Mmm.

Brian Dodd (11:48)
then maybe your staff and leaders are growing as well, but it starts with you. If you're growing, you've got a chance to have a growing church.

Jason Allison (11:56)
Yeah, that's so good. I've used that quote and I even give you credit for it. But I've used that quote repeatedly when I'm talking to groups of leaders and pastors, even just to let them know, hey, listen, I can give you tips. could I can throw out the principles of this, that or the other. But if you're not spending time with God during the week, then it doesn't matter what you're doing. You might be drawing a crowd, but you are certainly not making disciples.

Brian Dodd (12:25)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (12:25)
And

so yeah, I just, I love that Rob. I'm glad you brought that up, Rob, because that's, I've quoted him so many times and pretty soon I'm going to forget my source and just say I came up with that.

Courtney (12:34)
you

Brian Dodd (12:37)
Well, I'll go ahead and say go with it now. But you know, the seed of that, the seed of that idea, the 10 of meeting concept came from Crawford Loretz and his book, Leadership as an Identity. And I've just kind of personalized that and built on it over the years. But yeah, since you're giving me credit, I need to give credit to where the seed came from. And that's Dr. Loretz.

Courtney (12:38)
Right. Yeah. I was going to say, I think Rob's quoted it and has an attributed.

Jason Allison (13:04)
That's good.

Courtney (13:04)
But

I personally love the heart behind why you wrote this book. Like you said, it's this burden for seeing leadership done well and showing people what the local church can be like. Cause I think you're right in 2024, even 2023, like these, this day and age, I don't just worry about what's happening in my local church. Whatever happens in some, a scandal that happens in some church across the country is showing up on my Facebook feed or my Twitter feed. And so it's affecting me as a worshiper in a church, but then also as a leader.

It can be so easy to get into your own leadership ruts and habits. Like you only know what it's like to run your local church and you don't kind of know what other churches are doing out there. So it's kind like the opposite problem. You know, like we're kind of siloed in our day-to-day work, but then we don't really know how to apply some of these things in our context and what that could look like. So it's kind of nice to see all these different anecdotes of people doing it well and in different contexts. So we can gain ideas to

Implement it on a practical level. So what were some of those things that in your mind? It's like, okay Definitely spend time with Jesus. You need to be with Jesus as a pastor But what are some of those other things that just from some of your favorite stories that you uncovered? So let let us think about those examples

Brian Dodd (14:17)
Yeah, I'll tell one. You

know, it's funny. It's the very first story I tell in the book, but people want to talk about it. So, okay, all right. So I'll go wherever people want to go is the concept of the lead. What makes somebody an elite leader? Okay. The thing about leadership that everybody listening to this needs to know. John Maxwell was once asked a question. We want you to write a book on business ethics. And John said, well, I can't do that.

Jason Allison (14:34)
you

Brian Dodd (14:46)
and they're wondering why. And as John tells the story, there's no such thing as business ethics, there's just ethics. And when it comes to leadership principles, yes, there's different expressions depending on the environment, but the basic principles of leadership in a church, leadership in a family, leadership in nonprofit, leadership in business, leadership in athletic or educational organization, those are all the same.

You know, the concepts of vision, the concepts of team building, hard decisions, perseverance, know, conflict resolution, long-term thinking, you know, all of these different, you know, resource allocation and resource development, all these type of things, they're applicable everywhere. And, you know, we're in NFL playoff season in college now football playoff season at the time of this recording.

Athletics has a unique expression in the fact that there's a scoreboard up there. So there's immediate response, immediate feedback to how your leadership is doing. Okay. Well, the church world is different. Sanctification and discipleship take time. The principles are the same, but the expressions are completely different. So the thing is you just want to make sure, okay, loving people, servant leadership.

you know, being a shepherd, what does all of that look like? You know, those skills and that wisdom and that knowledge is transferable across any industry, any organization, any area of discipline, all those types of things.

Jason Allison (16:29)
Well, so I want to jump in because I think most pastors and leaders who are listening to this podcast, they seem to fall into one of two extremes, at least as I've run across them. You one extreme is you've got some people who are just amazing shepherds. I mean, they just love their flock. They love caring for them. They love going to the hospital, doing the dedications and the, you know, and the baptisms and the marriages and just all that stuff.

and they are amazing at it, but they are not, and they would probably acknowledge this themselves, they are not visionary leaders. And yet you're describing not just a pastor, but a leader who embodies or who grows his or her craft of leadership, right? And he or she is doing different things. And so I feel like some of our listeners fall into that visionary leader kind of role or ideal.

And so I'm wondering, is there a way to blend those two? Because I've known some visionary leaders who were terrible pastors because they just they were all about leading, but they weren't about caring. But I've known some wonderful pastors who pastored their church, but never led. so people, just kind of wandered around for a while, you know, and then they didn't get anywhere.

I don't know, how do you see pastors as they fall, but somewhere on that spectrum? Can they move? Is it all just gifting? What do you think's going on there?

Brian Dodd (18:02)
Yeah, first of all, I pastors have the hardest job in the world. And a lot of times pastors will want to deflect that and know I don't have the hardest job and things of that nature. And I don't know how much of that is false humility or how much of that they really think that. So I'm going to I'm going to go ahead and say this, whether you're visionary leader or shepherd or somewhere in between, pastors have the hardest job in the world for two primary reasons.

Number one, you have to lead volunteer armies. Okay, that's number one. You can't lord a paycheck over these people and they are free to go to the church down the street if they want to or not go to church at all. So that you have that reality. The second reality is this pastors who want to see people's lives changed in advanced mission and vision and push the kingdom of darkness backwards.

and reach their city in the world for Christ. They face an enemy every day the business owner down the street may not face. See, Satan is not omnipresent. He's a single individual and he has a certain number of resources called demons. Now, he can't be everywhere at the same time. He is a master of, you know, deployment. So here's the thing.

The business owner down the street may be making a profit, but he may not be doing anything related to the kingdom. There's a good chance Satan will not visit him today. And a lot of businesses do a good enough job kind of blowing up their own self without needing any help from Satan. Okay. But the church down the street that wants to reach people for Christ that wants to disciple people that has a vision.

that does care for people, yeah, they're gonna face him every day. So for that reason, I say pastors have the most difficult, one more reason pastors have the most difficult job and then I'm gonna answer your question. When you come out of Bible college or seminary, you're expected to be a CEO who knows business, you're expected to know tax laws, you're expected to know HR.

Courtney (20:10)
Thank

Brian Dodd (20:24)
You're expected to be able to build all these great teams. You're expected to counsel people. You're expected to do a large number of things. And you're expected to be an expert vision caster and public speaker slash communicator. That's a lot to ask of a 24 to 26 year old. That's a lot to ask of a 56 year old. Okay.

Jason Allison (20:43)
you

And

yet, you know what? Rob does it every single week and it's just amazing.

Brian Dodd (20:53)
and every single

weekend Rob does it. And Courtney and her team coming up will be doing it every weekend as well. That's a tough mountain to climb. So first of all, want to say this, pastors, thank you. I do think you have the most difficult job in the world. You're free to disagree with me and I respect that. You know, we can agree to disagree. But how do you kind of blend the two? I love helping pastors with vision.

I love it. Here's why. Let's say you're running 150 people on a weekend and I'll have pastors of churches, 150, 200, 300, 400. I'll talk to them during the week and they'll apologize. And Brian, I know you talked to these bigger churches and I'm so sorry and all this. Thank you for your time. And I got a standard answer. I say, look,

My wife and my daughter don't listen to me half the time. You got 150 people showing up every week. You're doing something right. So let's talk about what you're doing right and then see how we can grow that and multiply that over the next year. Okay. I have a completely different definition of vision than most people do. Because of the conversations I have, my definition of vision

Rob Paterson (22:07)
Mm.

Brian Dodd (22:19)
It's what you see, feel and hear on a Sunday multiplied and compounded over time.

that if we keep discipling people and we keep shepherding people and we keep reaching people and we keep resourcing what God's called us to do and we keep making an impact in our community, if we keep honoring God in those areas, what do think it's going to look like in 12 months? Okay, that's vision. Now let's just figure out how to get there. That's vision construction.

Rob Paterson (22:48)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Dodd (22:54)
So every pastor has vision whether they realize it or not. You may just need to kind of coach them through. You know, that's the advantage of like the Converge Network, people like me, we're able to pull that out of you, okay? If I can use this term and I use it respectfully, if you were a business leader that God has just somehow put you over a local church,

I need to challenge you to understand that no matter how big you are, no matter how large your budget is, there is a difference between transformation and transaction. And I want you to tell me about the lives you saw change this week and what it meant to you personally. The danger if you're a

quote unquote visionary leader, transactional leader. You are so far down the road, you miss the beauty of today. And for that person, I try to make them stop and say, me about this past Sunday. What'd you see, Phil, in here? Well, I saw my college kids over there. A bunch of them brought their friends. Why do you think they brought their friends?

You know, what's going on in their life that they would want somebody to experience what they're experiencing, that they would take that risk on a college campus and ask them to come to church. That one, the pastor, that's the, that's, I'll just use your term, too far on the shepherd's side. I'm trying to get them to take what happened this week, what they see, feel, and hear and multiply it into the future.

for the visionary, I'll use your term, the visionary leader. I'm trying to get them to say, let's remember the remarkable, let's remember what it's like when the Holy Spirit brings a dead person back to life.

Rob Paterson (25:00)
Mm. That's so good.

Brian Dodd (25:02)
What does that mean to you when I tell you that this weekend you watched a literal dead person come back to life? What does that mean to you? And trying to get them to remember it and that's the tension that you manage. Because God does have people wired differently, but that's the tension that you manage.

Jason Allison (25:20)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (25:21)
Yeah,

so good. So Brian, when you say that God wires people differently, one of the things that that is a thing, a tendency we notice is that most pastors, like you said, you know, like, hey, like part of our job is leading an army of volunteers. And so, you know, a lot of pastors are really good at telling a group of volunteers what to do or asking them, hey, can you help me with this or can you do this?

But for a lot of pastors, whether it's wiring or training or whatever, you know, when it comes to, a, if a, good leader, a strong leader shows up, man, sometimes those people are scary. Sometimes pastors have no idea what to do with or how to lead leaders. So, you know, give them, give them an army of volunteers and they can kind of point directions and give instruction. But with another leader, they just don't know what to do. Um,

Jason Allison (25:58)
you

Rob Paterson (26:16)
So, you know, maybe talk a little bit about that. Are you seeing the same thing? And really, how can pastors who maybe are listening and they're like, yeah, I'm good with volunteers, but I don't know what to do with leaders. How can they learn and grow in this area?

Jason Allison (26:20)
you

Brian Dodd (26:30)
Yeah, so this is a real reason here's why. Okay. Let's say the average pastor, I'm just gonna say is making 60 to 80,000 a year. Okay. They sit down in a room and everybody in the room is making more than

everybody in the room's more experienced. Everybody in the room this past week is doing six and seven figure and maybe eight figure deals. And now we're gonna come in and figure out how to get a mission trip funded. So there, know, imposter syndrome can creep in very easily and very quickly. Here's...

I've really thought a lot about this and I'd like to give the people listening to this 10 things they can do to lead leaders. And I'm gonna be honest with you, I need to put this in a different order, but I really wanna help some pastors in this area. So Courtney, Jason, and Rob, as I give these, I mean, please ask any follow-up questions or anything like this. The first thing I need,

to do is get everybody to go back and reread the conversion of Zacchaeus. Zacchaeus was a chief tax collector and rich. In other words, he was a business leader. Okay, what can we learn from Jesus's interaction with Zacchaeus that can help us lead leaders more effectively? I think number one is understand the leader's mindset. How's a leader wired?

Number one, they want to make a difference with this their one and only life. They've got at their business the transactional component, okay, or they've got that in some other area of their life. They want to advance mission and vision. They don't want to buy and sell widgets. They want to see lives changed, okay. They're focused more on transformation than transaction.

Okay, so that's the number one thing you've got to do is you've got to understand a leader's mindset. Okay, the second thing is you've got to be their pastor. You have the opportunity to have the one relationship with them no one else can have. You're their pastor. So when you're in a meeting with them, unless you're a business man or business lady that God's called into the ministry,

Don't talk to them about money. They've forgotten more about that than you know. But ask them about the condition of their heart. How's their marriage going? What's God shown them lately? What's God prompting them to do? How's their marriage? How's their work-life balance? Talk to them about the spiritual condition of their heart. Number three, ask great questions.

Okay, I cannot emphasize this enough. Wisdom is in great questions, not great answers. So when you're sitting down with a business leader, ask them great questions. And they could range from anything. Hey, how's the election affected your business, if at all? How's things going with your family? Tell me how you feel things are going at the church.

What's God done in your life lately? Okay, so the questions can vary. If you meet with this person regularly, hey, I want to follow up with you from the last time we were together. You were going to start a Bible reading plan. How'd that go? You know, ask great questions. I could not emphasize that enough. Don't be the answer man. Ask great questions. Yes.

Jason Allison (30:36)
Okay, Brian, hang on.

I want to pause. I want to get through all 10, but I got to pause there because the last two were so good. want to make sure that the idea of being their pastor, I think is something that we pastors forget too often. We want to be a leader and we want to be known as, you know, kind of running with the horses, so to speak.

Brian Dodd (30:48)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (31:02)
And so we try to be a leader like that and we forget. I love the way you said that there's only one person that they have asked to be their pastor and that's you. Be that pastor.

Brian Dodd (31:14)
The number one question you should answer internally and with a leader is this, are they saved? That is the number one thing you gotta find out. Okay? And then all other things flow, flow off of that, but the spiritual condition of their heart. I'll be real fast on these others, make them insiders. Okay?

Jason Allison (31:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Dodd (31:38)
Hey, we got this thing coming up. We're thinking about doing this thing in the fall at the church. We're still bouncing around the idea. I'd love to get your thoughts on it. Tell me what you're thinking. So make them insiders. Two things will come out of that. Number one, they'll make your idea better. So that's number one. Number two, when it comes time to roll it out, you've already made them an early adopter. And they can help advance mission vision.

Next, offer a clear, crisp, and compelling vision.

Great leaders are attracted to great vision. Hope in a brighter tomorrow, that attracts everybody. There's a whole podcast you can do on how to do that, but I'll do this. Next, follow up with them. I love it when I have a meeting with a church leader and I get a thank you note.

and about a month or two later, there's a follow up. I love that. Okay, I've got a box up in my office of nothing but thank you notes. I love it. I can sell X number of books. I can meet with whomever. I can do all those kinds of things. Nothing impacts me more than a thank you card. I love them. Next, give them a gift.

Rob Paterson (32:45)
Hmm

Brian Dodd (33:12)
When you meet with them, give them a gift and let me, are you showing preferential treatment? No, let me explain.

I would actually, and I'll recommend my book. That's a great gift to give. But when you meet with a leader, go, hey, I've been reading this book. I thought of you when I was reading it, just wanted to give it to you as a gift, say thank you, hope you enjoy it as well. You know, we don't have to do nothing big. are readers. So if nothing else, just giving them a copy of a book you're reading is gold. And here's why a gift is so valuable.

When you're a leader, especially a financial leader, everybody wants something from you. They want your time. They want your ideas. They want you to invest in their idea. Give them a job. Give me a raise. You know, hey, would you, would you invest in our missions event? You know, everybody wants something from them. Very few people give them anything. And what you're wanting to do is lead leaders so they can multiply your mission and vision.

And when you give them a gift, and with Amazon, a used book is pennies on the dollar, but it means the world to the recipient. And then they'll advance mission vision. Three more, and then I'll give a warning. Go to them. Jesus went to Zacchaeus' house. Church leader, do not call them up and say, hey, will you meet me at the office? I'd like to talk to you. Swing by their office.

Why do you swing by their office? Well, leaders love showing stuff off. We all do. Pastors, if I came to your church, you would walk me around your building. And I love seeing people's buildings. That's just part of it. Well, they want to show off their building. And they'll introduce you to their staff and things of that nature. Here's the beauty when you go to them. Not only do you now have influence over the leader, you now influence everybody they influence.

cause you've met them and things of that nature, go to them. Connect them with other leaders. Birds of a feather flock together. You know, hey, have you met Bob? I'm gonna do an email introduction. Y'all two need to get together for lunch. Y'all are two people that need to know each other. You know, connect them with other leaders and finally let them lead. Don't script the vision.

give them an assignment within the vision and then let them lead it. And they'll expand it and multiply it. So those are the 10 ways that I think you can lead leaders. Here's the warning, gonna give a warning. Who do you invest these 10 things in? Well, leaders, there's three types of leaders in a church, positional, non-positional, and financial. Positional is anybody with a title, usher, greeter,

preschool worker, worship, you know, musician, they got a title. And the title, what the title is is not important, but they got a title. Non-positional are people in your leaders in your community that just hadn't got plugged in in your church yet. Okay. And financial leaders are those who God has just equipped that if engaged, they can make a significant contribution to advancing mission and vision. Okay. So those are the people who are leaders.

Here's the warning. Watch control versus contribution. Don't let, make sure that they want to contribute to the vision, not hijack it and control it. There are some leaders, and I'm just going to be very straightforward as a man, and I'm sure that it's similar on the lady side of things. They don't have no control at work.

They don't have no control at home. They don't have no control in their homeowners association or in their local, you know, little league, you know, teams. They're going to try to control something. So let's try to control some at church. Okay. That's the warning. It's a small population, but there are people who won't control over contribution. Just be aware of it. But for people who are into contribution, yeah, that's 10 ways you can invest in leaders.

Jason Allison (37:47)
Okay, so we can spend the next six hours unpacking this. Courtney, you have that look of you have something on the tip of your tongue. Am I misreading you or do you have something?

Rob Paterson (37:51)
Hahaha

Courtney (37:59)
No, yeah,

I mean, I can always have something on the tip of my tongue. Like we're preachers, right? So, yeah, I think the one that really stood out to me, I mean, there was like just so much that was good there, but that leader's mindset, because you're right, there are things there. It's like, that's how you can identify a leader, even if, like you said, they haven't gotten plugged in yet, is they have this mindset of way of going about things that they want to see lives change and they want to make a difference with their one life.

Rob Paterson (38:04)
it.

Courtney (38:29)
And that's something that, you know, some people are just, okay, you know, doing the nine to five Monday through Friday and just trying to get through this life. And that's fine. Like we need them and they need us. But I think sometimes identifying who those leaders are often is often harder than it. I think it's kind of hard sometimes, but finding those people who are ready to be invested in, who are teachable and ready to contribute and want to do something. I think that's a really great way to get into their mindset.

Brian Dodd (38:56)
Yeah, back in 1987, there was that famous movie Wall Street with Michael Douglas and Gordon Gekko and Charlie Sheen asked that famous question, you know, Gordon, how many yachts can you water ski behind? you know, leaders may not have that issue, you know, but yeah, yeah, I do too. I wish, you know, how many beach houses do I, you know, have to have? But the reality is there is a point that everybody

Rob Paterson (39:14)
I wish I had that issue.

Courtney (39:16)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (39:16)
you

Brian Dodd (39:24)
you know, hey, we've put the stake in the mountain. You know, we've won the awards, we've got the zeros in the bank account, we've hit the monthly goals and the annual goals. you know, we've been recognized. None of those things fill a void, you know, that can only be filled by God moving in a person's life. And yet every Christian will reach a point and hopefully every person reaches a point as well.

Yeah, all of those are nice, but soap, software and, you know, cars can't change a human life. And I want my life to matter and I want my life to make a difference. And the local church can be the organism slash organization that can facilitate and meet that need that leaders are looking for.

Jason Allison (40:19)
Yeah, that's good. I'm just curious, know, as you as you interact with pastors and leaders all over the country of these 10, like, do you see pastors really diving into these? there? I'm just thinking I'm just saying some of the pastors I interact with, they're they're saying things like, yeah, that'd be great. But, you know, we don't have any leaders at my church.

You know, I don't know, have you heard that that excuse given before? If so, how do you respond?

Brian Dodd (40:53)
Well, fortunately I haven't, but if I did, I already know what I would say. Okay. And you, you know, you, you talk to people and Rob and Courtney, you do as well. So we're all getting things from different angles. first of all, I'd say this, if somebody said that I'd say, Hey, I understand where you're coming from. You know, always agree and build common ground. You know, I understand where you're coming from, but here's the thing. Everybody's a leader. Cause if nothing else, you got to lead yourself.

Jason Allison (40:56)
Okay.

Courtney (40:56)
I mean.

Brian Dodd (41:23)
So, I mean, so we're all leading and if nothing else, we're all positional leaders in some capacity. You know, you know, you've got deacons or elders or a board or Sunday school teachers or greeters and ushers. I mean, we all got leaders. Okay. So number one, you got to lead yourself. So let's talk about a leadership strategy and how to build a leadership culture. And it ultimately starts, you know, people do what people see.

So pastor, talk to me, how are you growing as a leader? And then that's how I would begin that conversation.

Jason Allison (42:01)
Maybe the other extreme then is, because I literally had a phone call an hour ago with a pastor who has a leader in their church that is causing disruption. so maybe the other extreme is, how do you, and I know there's a lot of variables in this question.

Brian Dodd (42:12)
Sure.

Rob Paterson (42:18)
they're the control

over the contribution kind of leader

Courtney (42:20)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (42:21)
Yes,

Brian Dodd (42:21)
Yeah, I get it.

Jason Allison (42:22)
yes. What is that? What is that? I don't know. How do you help pastors as they think about dealing with that kind of person?

Brian Dodd (42:29)
A lot of battles are won before they're ever fault. Okay, there were times in my life and I didn't realize it and my heart was in a good place, but I was Peter pulling out the sword, cutting off ears. Okay, here's the thing. I'm going go back to my John Maxwell training, the meeting before the meeting. So let's say I'm that problem. I'm that problem leader.

You need to meet with me about a week ahead of the meeting. Okay, and say, Hey, Brian, look, great to meet you. I need your help. Okay. I'm really wanting to see God do this. And I think you can really help us get it done. Let me roll it out to you. What kind of questions do you have? And then this is very important. Here's what I need you to do in the meeting.

Or here's what I need you to do when you meet with other people. And if if they pull the well, I don't agree with any of that. I think we ought to do this. Hey, I appreciate that. You know, I've kind of talked with the other leaders. And after speaking with the other leaders, praying about it and things of that nature, here's where we're going. And I appreciate that you're not on board with this initiative.

But this is not the only initiative we're going to have. In fact, at our next meeting, this ain't the only thing we're vote node. So it's kind of, it's kind of like Gideon's army. There were 300 of you for this battle. didn't mean the others were all retired. They all had future battles in them. I need you. This may not be your battle and I get it. If you'd support us, that'd be great, but we're doing this battle. I need you for other battles.

Now, if you try all that and he still or she still pushes back, okay, now I'm just gonna have to, you gotta get tough. This is hard conversations. This is where, first of all, other leaders need to talk to them. Let's have some accountability. Let's let church discipline happen one-on-one, two-oh-one, on-one, all that. Okay, let's let other leaders try to disciple them.

And then at that case, you just gotta wait for them to rotate off, leave, or worst case scenario, remove them from the leadership position. But hopefully we can divert that, but sometimes a hard decision is what's required.

Jason Allison (45:10)
And I think that's where pastors have a hard time leading leaders because they're afraid of that. They are afraid of that conversation, of that hard conversation of trying to be that person's pastor while leading them in a way that they don't want to go right this minute. I think that's just where the tension, which you mentioned, that's the tension you lean into. It's not a tension you solve or resolve.

You just have to lean into it. I mean, I'm just thinking as you've given these 10 things and we've talked about all this, I'm thinking about some of the leaders that I have had to lead as a pastor and some of the ways that I accidentally did these and it went well. And then some of the ways that I missed a couple and it burned me later, you know, or later I look back and thought, this is why I, you know, we missed on this one or whatever.

So I really do appreciate those. think this is really good stuff.

Brian Dodd (46:10)
Well, you know, that's where leadership is an oval track. You know, it doesn't end until we get to heaven. And hopefully with each lap around the track, we get a little better and a little wiser. But there was only one perfect leader. And so, yeah, we're gonna make mistakes and, you know, hopefully we'll learn from them and continue to grow and God's grace will be sufficient.

and fill in the gaps for our inabilities. And Jason, I'm gonna be honest, I look at some stuff I've done in the past and I'm just like, my heavens. Hopefully those things will never see the light of day. mean, that was, so anyway, but yeah, we've all been there.

Jason Allison (46:48)
You

Well, we're gonna have to bring this conversation in for a landing and maybe we're just gonna have to we've talked about having you on more often. Maybe we'll just have to go for some record setting pace here of, you know, multiple times. We really do appreciate you. Just if I can give you one piece of feedback here when I read your book and I read your blog, by the way, for those listening, Brian Dodd on leadership.com, you got to go visit that new stuff every single day. My one pushback to you is

There's too many things for me to remember. There's so much good stuff and every article has like three things you need to do five things you need to do and I'm like, I'm so stressed now.

Brian Dodd (47:39)
Right. So let me

Rob Paterson (47:40)
Hahaha

Brian Dodd (47:42)
tell you the format how I write. Courtney, Rob, Jason, all y'all read books. When you read a book, a book is like a lawyer making a case. They've got an idea or a concept and they're going to have seven or eight things called chapters, ideas that drive home that one point. So when I read a lot of books,

I'll read the chapter. They'll have an initial story in that chapter. That's real compelling. I enjoy the story and I've got it. But then they'll go 20, 25 pages explaining the one lesson from the story. And I can't wait to get to the next chapter so I can read the next story. Now, I don't know if everybody reads that way. It's just how I read. So the way I do it is I'm like, no, here's the story.

Here's the principles, here's how you apply them, here's the next story. That 20 pages of, I'll call it filler for lack of a better phrase, I leave that out. It is just meat after, it's a meat sandwich, meat after meat after meat. And here's the thing, how much is a good idea worth? know, Courtney Robb, Jason,

Courtney (48:53)
Mm.

Brian Dodd (49:06)
If I gave you today one idea that helped your church advance mission and vision, how much is that worth?

Rob Paterson (49:16)
Priceless.

Brian Dodd (49:17)
Correct. For $18.99, you can get hundreds of sermon illustrations, hundreds of ideas, if you find one that advances your mission vision, you've paid for it. This is why leaders are readers. I cannot pay, I'll just say Elon Musk. I cannot...

to Elon to sit down. Well, I could. I just couldn't afford it to pay Elon to sit down and have lunch with me. But I can get Walter Isaacson's book. And in two days it be delivered to my house for let's say Walter Isaacson. My books 1899 Walters is probably 2499 for 2499 I can have Elon Musk mentor me through a book.

Jason Allison (49:49)
Yeah.

Brian Dodd (50:15)
That's why books are by far the greatest return on investment that a leader can have. you know, I always try to be uplifting, encouraging, things like that. But if a leader's not reading, there ain't much I can do to help them. But yes, how much is a good idea worth? You don't have to get my book, get a book.

Jason Allison (50:35)
Yeah.

Brian Dodd (50:43)
that helps you advance your mission and vision. And I think you'll be a much better leader for

Jason Allison (50:49)
Well, I agree and I would recommend your book for starters. And then there are multiple others, I'm sure, and that I can easily recommend. know Rob and Courtney and I are always swapping which book we're currently reading and what that looks like and getting arguments over it. And it's lots of fun. But Brian, thank you for your time, for just your investment in leaders and pastors. Your heart is just so obvious. that just, it means the world to me that you would take time.

and do that with us. Thank you.

Brian Dodd (51:21)
Well, here's the deal. I'm kind of in podcast season because the book's out, but none of them have made me an honorary host. So yes, I am thrilled to be on the Church Talk podcast and it's an honor to be here. Can't wait to return again for a fifth time. So I'll look forward to it.

Courtney (51:30)
Yes.

Jason Allison (51:31)
Well.

Well, thank you so much and to all our listeners. We hope that you have enjoyed today and that it has definitely brought you something that will help you as you lead, you pastor, as you care for the people around you, because we exist to engage, equip, and encourage pastors and leaders all around the world. We are so glad you're part of this and we would love for you to share this podcast with some friends, some enemies, whoever you want to. Take a minute and subscribe. That would help us out and leave a review.

Have an amazing week. Thanks for being part of the Church Talk podcast.