2024 In Review

In this episode of the Church Talk Podcast, Rob, Jason, and Courtney reflect on their journey over the past year, celebrating their growth and milestones as a podcast. They discuss the importance of engaging with the church community, the challenges faced in 2024, and the significance of spiritual health. The hosts also highlight their top episodes and the impact these discussions have had on their listeners, emphasizing the need for rest and grounding in faith. In this conversation, the hosts explore various themes related to health, leadership, and the future of the church. They discuss the importance of work-life balance, particularly for pastors, and the unique challenges faced by women in leadership roles. Mental health and counseling are emphasized as essential components of pastoral care. The conversation also touches on worship team coaching and the revitalization of church experiences, culminating in a discussion about the future of the church and the importance of discipleship.

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Transcript

Rob Paterson (00:01.831)
We want to welcome you back to another episode of the church talk podcast with Rob and Courtney and Jason. And we are all here together again for our end of the year episode as we get ready to jump into a brand new year. man, what a, what a, just a fun time, you know, just to, reflect back, to look forward. And, one of the things that we just discussed off air, which I think is really cool.

is that this is the 127th episode of the Church Talk podcast. So we've been doing this for two and a half years now, every single week, bringing you guys a new episode, a new content, whether you think that's valuable or you're just like, eh, you know, whatever, that's fine. But Courtney gave us this great statistic that the average life of a podcast is 57 episodes.

Which, guys, that means we are 70 episodes more than average. So at least in this one small way, we are way above average.

Jason Allison (01:12.578)
Finally, one thing in my life is above average other than my weight.

Rob Paterson (01:20.819)
that's good though. I mean, that's like more than a year longer than a typical podcast and a lot of podcasts, you know, or every other week or even once a month. you know, that's, that's pretty cool.

Jason Allison (01:25.4)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (01:32.31)
I wonder how many of our listeners gave up on us after 57 episodes. I don't know. I am hearing.

Courtney (01:37.655)
That or they started afterwards.

Jason Allison (01:45.262)
That's true. So I was I was at a conference in Phoenix a month ago six weeks ago and a couple of people who are like regional presidents and whatever caught me and said hey We hear that the church talk podcast is like a really growing exciting cool podcast and and one of them even said

I really, what, what do I need to do to be a guest on it? So, I mean, that's pretty impressive. I don't care who you are unless you knew these people, then you may not be as impressed, but still people actually want to be on this, which I don't understand, but it's still a lot of fun. Yes. If nothing else, Rob and Courtney and I have enjoyed, talking church, talking about lots and lots of stuff and interviewing some extremely cool people. And I, Rob, thought,

Rob Paterson (02:32.915)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (02:44.642)
That's kind what we do today, right is just let's reflect back on the year let's talk about a few of the highlights and maybe even the lowlights and See see where the Holy Spirit leads us for this episode

Rob Paterson (02:57.521)
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And I think it's really cool too. You know, cause in the beginning, mean, we always joked right about our, our tens of listeners, and that kind of stuff. Jason, it was fun just to think about, and it wasn't even like the whole year, but, you know, just last week you sent us a thing, you know, this year we've had a couple thousand downloads, hitting 14 countries.

And that's pretty cool, right? Like just to think of literally, you know, that many people from at various points in the world listening to, and we really like, we always stress this, but we want you guys to know, and we really think this through and care deeply about us. The whole reason we do this is because we really want to engage with, equip and encourage pastors and leaders.

Jason Allison (03:30.702)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (03:54.319)
And so, you know, I mean, we understand the difficult moments, the challenges, the unique kind of stressors of living life in the church as a full-time vocational minister, as, you know, a paid volunteer as a high level, you know, volunteer or, know, just, we get all of that and, and we care. And so in those moments, and you know, it may not even be.

any of our episodes in particular that like hit the bullseye for you, but just knowing that you have people who have a whole bunch of experience, especially combined. And, you know, we are here. You have our email addresses and we're always happy to hear. I actually got an email just, just a couple of nights ago from, somebody asking some questions. And I just thought, what a cool opportunity just to, work together so we can all be better.

Jason Allison (04:46.787)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (04:50.638)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if nothing else, I really hope our listeners know that we, we actually, we love them deeply. I mean, we may not know their names like specifically, but we love pastors. We love people who volunteer at churches. We love church people, even the hard ones to love. and we just, we just love the church.

And we want to serve it in whatever way we can. And so if this, if this little podcast brings you any joy or help or encouragement, then yeah, we've done our job. What are you thinking, Courtney? Your, your video is slightly fuzzy, so I can't read your expression.

Courtney (05:30.025)
I know. Yeah. I've been having internet problems today and I haven't logged back into my internet after the initial power outage. we, yeah, I think that was the thing that I was really shocked by. You know, we do often joke about our tens of listeners, but I was like, man, we've got tens of countries being represented. you kind of, you know, film these podcasts and they just kind of, from my end, at least we filmed them, they record them, they go out to the void. never know where they come back unless somebody reaches out directly to us. but.

It is a very humbling thing to know that the things that we just like to talk about, like, cause we are just church nerds. Like we like talk about the church. We like talk about theology. We like talk about how to do things better and help people more in the name of Jesus. And the other people are church nerds with us. And it's really fun to be able to walk alongside that. And it's really humbling to know that people are willing to listen to whatever we have to say. So that has been just a very,

a good highlight that I felt like in your statistics that you sent us that really warmed me. And I honestly feel just totally humbled by being invited to be a podcast host with you guys. Rob asked me at the beginning of the year to join you guys. And I never knew what this journey would entail, but it has been a lot of fun. so I've been humbled to become a part of the Church Talk podcast crew.

Jason Allison (06:55.01)
Well, we're glad you're on too. We actually like you.

Rob Paterson (06:58.887)
Hahaha

Courtney (06:59.635)
Nice. I'm glad.

Jason Allison (07:01.101)
Yes.

So Rob, Courtney, where do we start? Where do you want to start talking about 2024? Because I mean, it was such a boring year. Nothing happened in 2024. I mean, there were no elections. There were no presidential things. There was nothing of interest. What are some of the highlights from this past year you want to reflect on?

Rob Paterson (07:22.962)
Ugh.

You know, that's, it's a crazy thing that you just said, because like I had, you know, some thoughts and suggestions. And then you said that, and it made me want to pontificate a little bit about the crazy year in the election and how like literally, and this would have happened, you know, if, if either outcome, you know, potential outcome had, had happened, but you know, I mean, I have literally seen articles I've, I've received.

prayer requests. You know, I have witnessed comments from people I know, people I know of and people I don't know, saying like, you know, I mean, I've literally had people who are like, please pray for me. I'm literally fearful that my rights now are going to like completely disappear. And then I've seen other people who are like, thank God, like the country is just going to go back to being normal and better and perfect again.

You know, and everything in between. it's just like, you know, and I think a lot of it, want one, one sort of sound bite that kind of floats out there that I really appreciate is, know what, if we all just turned off our TVs and our news feeds and all that kind of stuff and just lived life for the most part, things would be normal and we'd all be happy. And I just think it's the echo chamber of news that gives us these extreme partisan.

you know, ridiculous thoughts and opinions on both sides that people hear and they hear again and again and they get ingrained and we listen to them and then we buy into those lies. and, yeah, so I guess before we talk a little bit more about, some things that really seem to hit nerves and hit bulls eyes for people in our podcast, you know,

Rob Paterson (09:19.505)
I guess that would is as we end one year and we start another one, man, let's listen a little bit less to things like news that aren't really news, their opinion. and let's listen to more podcasts. Let's, let's read the Bible more, you know, let's do things that'll actually help form us and make us into better people and better followers of Jesus. Not all the stuff that just gets us hyped up and

you know, believing things that have really little to no value anyway.

Jason Allison (09:55.202)
Yeah. So focusing on what matters and what's important is something if we didn't learn anything else in twenty twenty four, we learned that identifying what really matters, identifying what am I allowing to shape me? I think those are things whether it's most of us seem to be discipled or shaped by

the news that we take in. And we kind of all year long, we seem to fight against that a bit, right? We over and over said, don't be shaped by your little bubble of news media. Work to expand that a little, hear from other people. And most importantly, let the church and Jesus shape you instead of all the fear mongering news stuff that's out there.

So for me, I know that's a lesson I really had to hear over and over and over and had to make sure it was ingrained in me. Courtney, what are your thoughts there? Anything deep and insightful?

Courtney (11:07.635)
I don't know if they're deep and insightful, but I agree with you guys. Like this year had the, you know, all the makings of before even coming into it of potentially being a crazy year, just cause you know, the election inherently means that we'll be kind of fed a constant, you know, stream of information through the news to try to get us riled up into the election and all those kinds of things. But for some reason for, for us, like,

Jason Allison (11:09.276)
Ha ha!

Courtney (11:34.155)
Timothy and I were talking about it. actually feels like time actually slowed down for us in a good way. Like since COVID had like kind of interrupted all of our regular rhythms of time and understanding of all those things. It had felt like the last three years had just happened to us. And like three years felt like one month or something. And you're just like, did three years go by? But 2024...

Jason Allison (11:55.532)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (11:57.171)
Mm.

Courtney (11:59.455)
I think because we were trying to develop some more of these rhythms that we've talked about on the podcast and we had our Bible study and things like that, they actually slowed down for us in a way that we actually felt like we could measure time and it felt like an entire year instead of just feeling like it just happened to us and we were passive recipients in it. So I do think that what you guys have said, Rob was like, just read your Bible more, dig into the life of the church more, that doing those things have helped reorient us in a good way, even just as church leaders.

If you guys are out there feeling like, you you've struggled since COVID to regain a sense of normalcy just in your own routine, that really can help. Like the church, the life of the church really can help with that and kind of give you that sense of grounding that you might've been looking for that kind of roots you in your local community and culture and kind of keeps you from doom scrolling. So, yeah.

Rob Paterson (12:50.131)
I love that term. love that term. Courtney, when you kind of reiterated the whole again, pick up your Bible, read your Bible kind of comment made me think too about last week's episode when you mentioned, you know, kind of the gift idea of being in a new place or a new thing and buying an ornament as kind of a something your family does. So if Tim's out somewhere, he doesn't have to worry about what's the perfect gift. He can just do that. I would also add

Jason Allison (12:50.232)
Yeah.

Courtney (12:52.779)
Yes, we do.

Jason Allison (12:53.048)
Yeah.

Courtney (13:14.551)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (13:19.303)
You if he if he runs into somewhere, a premium Bible with a really cool high end leather cover, that would also be like the bullseye for you for me. And I'm sure for Jason as well, you know, for any of our spouses who may be listening into this episode and are looking for like a last minute. that's that's so good. Well, Jason, you know, and I think we did a similar thing last year, but man, I think it'd be fun.

Courtney (13:23.286)
Yes.

Jason Allison (13:27.139)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (13:30.782)
Absolutely.

Jason Allison (13:34.508)
which we know doesn't happen.

Courtney (13:37.627)
It does not happen.

Jason Allison (13:40.462)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (13:47.569)
You know, we got a little list here of kind of our top four episodes of all time that people have downloaded the most and then three that have been the most popular this past year. And I think it'd be fun to mention those kind of one by one and tell people kind of, know, which episode they were. So if they want to go check those out, maybe they weren't following along at that point and they are now and they want to go back and listen to.

They're like, I'm not gonna go listen to 127 episodes, but I'll go listen to a few. I mean, these might give them a little bit of a roadmap to help with that.

Jason Allison (14:24.546)
Yeah, yeah.

Courtney (14:24.917)
I will just quickly add that in none of these episodes I am present. Like I'm not even a cohost. So I feel some bias in the way that this list was pulled. Just saying.

Jason Allison (14:35.798)
it's purely based on downloads. So it's not necessarily on popularity. Like people might've liked you better. They just need to share the podcast so that other people download it.

Rob Paterson (14:39.143)
Yeah.

Courtney (14:46.475)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (14:49.137)
And Courtney, I do think that, and we can, we, think at the end to like, let's add a bonus episode that probably was the most popular one that Courtney was a part of and actually was really her thinking and idea that inspired it. but it's really just a math thing, Courtney, because you have been around the least amount of time. And so that that's why that is it's not that, it's not a personal thing, just a math problem.

Courtney (15:11.67)
This is true.

Courtney (15:16.341)
I know it's not personal. Yeah.

Jason Allison (15:16.524)
Yes. I mean, that one thing you could do, Courtney, is you could start sharing the podcast with people.

Courtney (15:24.713)
Yeah, you're right about that. Yeah, I could.

Rob Paterson (15:26.555)
Yes.

Jason Allison (15:26.702)
So, so Rob, I was looking, I've got the little app pulled up and I was looking, we have actually been in 29 different countries and territories have downloaded a podcast. And I mean, the Philippines, India, Australia, Portugal. I mean, there's now some of these, maybe one or two were a bot or somebody's using a VPN or something. I don't know.

Rob Paterson (15:39.891)
Mmm.

Jason Allison (15:55.638)
I don't know how that stuff works. even on almost, let's see, we've had downloads in, of course, North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Oceania. We've had downloads. mean, 10 is the least amount, but still in some of these. that's kind of cool. I don't know what that means, but there it is. And in cities, there's over 500 different cities have.

Rob Paterson (16:08.305)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (16:17.021)
Yeah?

Jason Allison (16:24.792)
people have downloaded. So that's kind of cool. All that to say, so some of the ones that you asked me for the list, right, or to kind of kick off the conversation about that. You want to start all time or did you want to do just this year?

Rob Paterson (16:38.609)
Let's do all time and then we'll kind of move more specifically to this year.

Jason Allison (16:42.454)
All right. Well, there two that are at the top of the list for all time favorite download, most downloaded episodes. The first one is turning the page in ministry. And that's with Pastor Ron Crawford, a dear friend of ours down in the DC area. And he literally was in the process of succession planning and then handing the ministry over and that whole process. he sat down with us and we were at a conference when we were at the United Conference in DC.

Rob Paterson (17:07.058)
Mm.

Jason Allison (17:12.418)
Yeah, though you're wearing the t-shirt there, Rob. You're such the, I don't know what. But he sat down with us and I had to drag all the recording equipment in and got that set up and he just chatted with us for a while about that. And that was really cool. It was a great episode.

Rob Paterson (17:17.681)
you

Courtney (17:17.847)
you

Rob Paterson (17:28.307)
Yeah, I, I of all, I love Ron. I mean his heart, you know, for, for Jesus, for God's people, for the church is awesome. But I also think, you know, it was so much fun to get to process succession with him in real time as he was going through that. I mean, it wasn't like he was finished. He was like in the process.

And, he talked about like bumps in the road where that, you know, they kind of picked someone and that really didn't work and, know, all that sort of stuff. So it, and I think for, people in ministry, I mean, and you and I actually had lunch with a guy a number of weeks ago who was three months retired and it was so fun to have a conversation with him. think the plan is to have him on as a guest and to interview him, you know, in the near future, just cause he said some things that were sort of mind blowing.

and helpful. But the truth is as people in ministry, at some point we are going to be done doing like the job we do, whether that's a health thing or an age thing or, or whatever. And so the idea of someone following us is super important. And, you know, I think in, most human beings, there's that little, hopefully it's a little part of us that is like, well, you know, I hope that people miss me and I hope that, you know,

You know in some small way things aren't quite as good because people just loved me so much and I did a really good job but at the end of the day if I'm gonna spend years and Decades of my life pouring into and building something I actually want it to outlive me and I want it to get better after me. So, you know What again? episode 49 Go check that out

Jason Allison (19:03.726)
Thank

Jason Allison (19:12.76)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (19:20.243)
because I really do think, know, whether you feel like you're decades away from retirement and seeing whoever follows you or whether you're a lot closer, this is something to be thinking about, talking about, and planning towards.

Jason Allison (19:36.406)
Yeah. Yeah. So the second most part, and actually they're tied, but I think alphabetically, I don't know why it listed one at the top, but the second one is actually episode six. And this was, and we've had this person on a second time. So I'm going to talk to them as to why the second one isn't like she needs to get to get to work here, but.

Rob Paterson (19:51.697)
Hmm.

Rob Paterson (20:01.908)
And Jason, was this our first guest? Was Twana our first guest?

Jason Allison (20:04.332)
Yes, yes, Twana was. So hope for exhausted pastors with special guest Twana Henderson, episode six. Yes, that is the tide for the most downloaded. Yeah, that was I don't remember all the details of that one because it's been a long time and I'm old. But I know we have just a great friendship with Twana and New Beginnings Church down there in Charlotte, North Carolina with

Michael Henderson is the pastor. Twana is a first lady and director of ministry and just right. actually is on the city council now. I mean, that's what our last episode with her was about right before the election. So that was a lot of fun talking politics with the first lady of a large African-American church in the south and who is involved in politics and is actually on the city council. And that was you got to go listen to that one, too. That was a lot of fun. But anyway, yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:01.875)
Mm.

Jason Allison (21:01.966)
I don't know, thoughts, Rob, on any of that? Courtney, I know you weren't. Were you even born when this first episode came out? OK, OK, fine.

Courtney (21:07.767)
Maybe not, I don't know. Depends on how you count time, I guess.

Rob Paterson (21:10.908)
You

Rob Paterson (21:14.387)
She's not that much younger. She's a lot younger than us, but not that much, right?

Courtney (21:17.932)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (21:20.807)
Huh? Well, and Jason, I mean, I'm just thinking about this mathematically, like two and a half years ago, which is when we would have recorded that episode. mean, like COVID was still a thing then, you know what I mean? Like in terms of not that it's not a thing now, but like it was still, I mean, I suspect some churches, some churches were still not, you know, back open. and those kinds of things. So, and I think.

Jason Allison (21:37.634)
there were still lockdowns in place.

Rob Paterson (21:48.589)
We, and we talked a lot about that. mean, cause I think ministry in general tends to age people and wear people out, just the demands, the stresses, those kinds of things. But then COVID was a whole different level of that. And I don't think it was necessarily because of COVID, you know, specifically, but it forced us to have to learn and figure things out that we had not had to learn and figure out before that.

And so, you know, continuing to do, you know, what we do, but doing it in brand new ways and just the steep learning curves. it just, I mean, it, it sped up the, the weariness, the decline, the exhaustion. And, and, and I think it was about the time we recorded this episode that all those statistics about, you know, how many pastors were quitting or considering just being done with ministry was super duper high.

Jason Allison (22:28.417)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (22:45.068)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (22:46.619)
you know, more than more than normal. And so I just think this topic was was it was a really timely thing. But for pastors and for people who are high level leaders, this is always a relevant topic.

Jason Allison (22:49.25)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (23:01.854)
yeah, yeah. You got any thoughts there Courtney? Again, you're you're blurry. I can't see you. Yeah.

Courtney (23:07.159)
Yeah, I mean, I do think that that was that time two and a half years ago when it really was the, you know, the throws of COVID and feeling overwhelmed by ministry. so I'm sure Reverend Tawana has like really great advice on how to give you hope if you were an exhausted pastor then that also still applies now. But man, the the Henderson's in general are just a wealth of information.

and just encouragement. are great pastors here in my district or like my sub-district of Convergement Atlantic. So I get to interact with them quite a bit and they are just a joy to be around. And so I would say go and find the episodes that they're in in general. So whether it's that one from episode six or the recent one with that we filmed just a couple months ago prior to the election. I think you've done one with Pastor Henderson as well, right?

Rob Paterson (23:46.675)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (24:01.622)
No, not yet. No. Yeah, I'll talk to him. I'll text him later.

Courtney (24:02.291)
No, well we've got to get him one of the podcasts. So people can hear him.

Rob Paterson (24:02.599)
Mm-mm.

We do.

Jason Allison (24:10.816)
So it's interesting, Rob, number three in the list is really it's closely connected, but it's episode 59. And it was we we we did in September of that year, which would be a year ago, twenty twenty three, I guess. did Spiritual Health Awareness Month because every other we did, we declared it and we made it so. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we just can do that.

Rob Paterson (24:11.315)
Thank

Rob Paterson (24:30.693)
We just declared it. We've done this a couple times, haven't we?

Jason Allison (24:38.412)
I mean, that's the power of podcasting right there. Yeah, but that that that episode where we talked about rest, which goes hand in hand with, you know, Tawana's episode is finding rest is such it's a spiritual discipline. And so thinking back as especially our listeners this time of year, right, between Christmas and New Year's. And and this is a time where you know what? It's OK to rest.

Rob Paterson (24:41.139)
No rules.

Rob Paterson (24:54.269)
Mm.

Jason Allison (25:05.27)
It's okay, as Courtney told us last week, know, it's okay to feast and to do fun things. And as Rob said, it's okay to deprive yourself of all good things so that no, wait, that's not how you put it. You're just eating healthy. That's right.

Rob Paterson (25:18.655)
No, no. And I think, I think my, my, advice there was actually take it out of context because I really do think the problem is that for most people, they just like do feasting nonstop. And actually the, encouragement in not waiting was it feast more. It was really, you probably should have been mixing in some fasting along the way.

Courtney (25:33.164)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (25:33.581)
Yes.

Courtney (25:42.911)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (25:43.771)
So start today, you know.

Jason Allison (25:44.13)
Yes. So are we proponents of intermittent fasting? that what we're saying? Is that a... Okay. Should I try to get that in the hashtag so maybe we get a whole new group of listeners that are all about weight loss?

Rob Paterson (25:50.867)
I am, yes.

Courtney (25:52.897)
Yeah, I am.

Rob Paterson (25:59.717)
Yeah, a health fitness kind of crew that which is good that we don't, you know, like have video yet because then they they our words may have some credibility.

Courtney (26:02.335)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (26:08.142)
Hahaha

as long as they can't see us.

Courtney (26:12.663)
No, I didn't take your advice out of context. just was like, mine was like fast now feast later. Yours was feast now, or fast now, you know, feast eventually. And so it was just like timing wise. Ours was a little bit off timing. Yeah. So, yeah.

Jason Allison (26:23.822)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (26:25.841)
Yeah, yeah, I get it. You still threw me under the bus a little bit, Courtney.

Courtney (26:30.519)
Not a ton of it, though.

Jason Allison (26:32.398)
No, a little. Just a little. That's all.

Rob Paterson (26:32.689)
Yeah, I know. So Jason, I don't remember, again, some of the specifics of this episode, but just reading the title, if I'm thinking correctly, I had read a book probably like the year before this that was entitled Rust. And there was so much stuff in terms of like research and scientific studies.

And even historical examples of some of the most productive people, even through the industrial revolution, the people who made some of the greatest contributions to society, the people who wrote the most books, you know, all kind of figured out this thing that how, cause you would think, you know, to accomplish some of those things, my goodness, those people would have had to have like, you know, worked endlessly, you know, and burned the candle at all ends.

But really the most successful people who made the biggest contributions actually figured out that working four to five hours a day, early in the day getting up and when you're fresh and focused without distractions working, and then when you're done working, actually taking kind of the rest of your day, the afternoon to do leisurely things, to relax, to exercise, to go on walks allows for your mind to.

process and defragment like we do sometimes to our computers where impossible answers sometimes come to us in those down times, not in the while we're thinking about them times. And again, I know in our culture sometimes we go, that's not how it works nowadays. But the book even talked about how people who are like the most successful CEOs, like they take

you know, they sleep a ton on their weekends and, and make sure they get adequate rest. And again, just the importance of all that sort of stuff. And I think that is such an important concept that most people in ministry just don't understand. You know, there's always somebody to visit. There's always something to do. There's always like the next thing to plan the next sermon to write. And so, you know, so many pastors, we just take

Rob Paterson (28:52.925)
you know, 40, 50, 60, 70 hours a week to do our jobs. And, and, and, and this, this idea of the law of diminishing returns after like a certain number of hours, we're actually not accomplishing anymore. And likely we're, we're getting less done.

Jason Allison (29:04.802)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (29:10.22)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to get to the next one real quick too, because the fourth most downloaded episode of all time is a conversation with two high capacity leaders who happen to be women. And sorry, Courtney, we didn't, I didn't know you at this time or you would have been included in that, but this was pre Courtney. We call that PC around here. And so, but, this was with our good friends and

Courtney (29:35.159)
You

Jason Allison (29:40.184)
fellow staff members with me on Converge Mid-Atlantic staff, Emily Manders and then Jenny Bollinger. The two of them talked about being leaders and being female and how those two things, know, oftentimes in church world, those things get really, they kind of get in the way of each other. so, and honestly, part of the inspiration of

know, inviting Courtney to be part of the conversations as often as she is able is to get the voice of someone who is not a middle-aged white guy, but someone, you know, who brings a new perspective. And so I thoroughly love that conversation. I love, I was in a meeting with them just a couple of weeks ago and both of them happened to be in the room with me, Jenny and Emily. And I remembered why it's probably not good for me to sit next to either one of them during a serious meeting because

Courtney (30:36.225)
Mm.

Jason Allison (30:36.813)
Yeah, that I get in trouble. But anyway, yeah Courtney, I don't know what we go ahead. Go ahead Rob

Rob Paterson (30:40.369)
Yeah, yeah, I agreed.

No, I love that conversation too. And so if you're listening and, you're a female and maybe you have felt limited, or, know, like you weren't given opportunities solely based on your gender because, you know, a church or a leader in a church felt like that was not acceptable.

Emily and Jenny both have experienced those things numerous times, but they also talk about them. felt like in a healthy way, not like, we're so wounded because this has happened. And so I valued both of those things. People who have been through difficulties and challenges, but then, you know, we're able to navigate those things and do so in a healthy way without, you know, walking away and really wounded. that I that was good.

Courtney (31:39.893)
Yeah, my, I come in that episode as well. It actually was the first way that I found out y'all even had a podcast. Like y'all had had it for awhile and Rob had been my church planting coach and he hadn't told me about it at all. So, you know, Jason, like you can get on me for not promoting the podcast.

Jason Allison (31:52.546)
Nice, Rob.

Rob Paterson (31:54.771)
I'm getting thrown under the bus by Courtney again.

Jason Allison (31:57.408)
again.

Courtney (31:59.543)
But in talking about some of those very things that he was talking about of what it's like to be a high capacity female leader, but to also experience some rejection of your leadership capabilities and in different ministry contexts, he was like, Hey, like we did an episode with, you know, two great leaders in Convergement Atlantic. You should go and listen to that one. So that was my first episode that I ever listened to the Church Talk podcast. And I can say that both of them are

Rob Paterson (32:22.533)
So I did recommend you go listen to the podcast. Interesting.

Courtney (32:26.017)
But it was like, it was a while into it. Yeah, somebody did. It was like...

Jason Allison (32:28.014)
Somebody did. Well, it was episode 39.

Rob Paterson (32:30.621)
Yeah.

Courtney (32:34.135)
It was well after y'all had filmed it. It was like, you know, June of last year. So, you know, it was, was pretty, pretty far afterwards, but nonetheless, it helped when it helped. It came in handy when it came in handy. And so, I, Emily has been just a really great friend and encouragement at Converge as well, since we first started looking into Converge as a denomination. So.

Rob Paterson (32:42.003)
Nice.

Jason Allison (32:43.991)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (32:46.333)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (32:46.371)
There you go.

Courtney (32:57.697)
I have a lot more experience with her than with Jenny personally, but they are both great people. So go and listen to that podcast, because you will definitely be blessed and encouraged by that.

Jason Allison (33:07.362)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (33:07.389)
Yeah, Jason, I know we only have like, you know, 10 minutes to hit like our most popular episodes for, this past year, but I I'm noticing this is interesting and I don't know if there's anything to this, but for our listeners, if you just want to an easy way to remember, you know, which episodes to go check out, if you want to hit this list, episode 39, 49 and 59 all are in our top list. So I don't know if there's something about, you know,

the episodes that end with nine, because episode 89 is also on the thing for this year's episode. So, I don't know.

Jason Allison (33:40.844)
Yeah.

Courtney (33:43.702)
Yes.

Jason Allison (33:44.867)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (33:48.462)
Yeah, I don't know either and this so yeah, might be you gotta wait two more weeks before a good episode comes out if this is 127 Which actually the crazy thing is I know what that episode is gonna be and it's gonna be phenomenal because we get to speak with Jason Bowman the principal partner of arts speak creative and that's gonna be episode 129 and It was phenomenal Courtney. Once again, you weren't there

Courtney (33:50.624)
Mm.

Courtney (33:55.061)
A good episode again.

Rob Paterson (34:10.159)
I love that guy.

Courtney (34:14.868)
Not in that one.

Rob Paterson (34:16.084)
You

Courtney (34:19.223)
you

Jason Allison (34:19.374)
But you not being there is not why it was a great episode.

Rob Paterson (34:24.307)
Inner womanhood.

Jason Allison (34:26.446)
I'm so glad Courtney is secure in her. I was going to say in her masculinity, but not in her femininity. That's right. And she doesn't need us to be rich and famous or at least famous because she's got her own right there. yeah. So yeah, the nines something about it. Maybe we just record once every 10 weeks and it'd be better off. Some people may agree with that. All right. So let's sit.

Courtney (34:32.843)
Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney (34:50.485)
Mm-hmm.

Rob Paterson (34:52.839)
They'd be longer episodes for sure.

Jason Allison (34:55.054)
Yeah, because we'd still say the same amount we would have in 10 weeks worth of stuff. So the third most popular in 2024 was the not so great escape with Kendra Deese. she is Dice. Yes. Sorry. She actually is a member at your church, Rob. And right. And is connected to counseling and all this stuff and just shared a ton. She's is she a nurse? I can't remember now. My mind just went totally blank.

Courtney (34:59.903)
Thank

Rob Paterson (35:08.339)
dice.

Rob Paterson (35:22.659)
No, she, she is, she is a counselor. and, and, you know, I, I not only recommend, where she works cornerstone Christian counseling in Ashland, Ohio. but, my son Christopher has actually seen her professionally just, you know, through COVID, man, that was such a difficult time for so many people. My oldest son is very, empathic. just, like when other people are struggling, he feels that he takes that on himself.

Jason Allison (35:25.281)
Okay.

Jason Allison (35:39.51)
Yeah. yeah.

Rob Paterson (35:51.299)
And that was a really difficult season. And so really started seeing Kendra, you know, as needed back then, and has continued just to kind of do maintenance checkups with her. And I, I, know, even beyond that, you know, I, and I know we all, encourage counseling, you know, just like you would go to the doctor at least once a year for an annual checkup, just to kind of make sure you're on the right trajectory with your physical health, talking to a counselor.

at regular intervals, at least yearly, know, personally, if you're married as a couple can really help with your emotional health. and, and I think that they're just so valuable and, man, it was so much fun to have Kendra on, our podcast.

Jason Allison (36:36.27)
Yeah.

Yeah, she was a lot of fun. And we actually got to do that one in person because I came up there and we sat around and at the church there and did that. And that was fun. So side note on this, you know, I just finished setting up my goals, my plan, strategic plan for 2025 with my job with Converge. But it really spills over into the Church Talk project in a lot of ways. And one of my points of focus.

is figuring out ways to connect pastors and leaders to mental health professionals and spiritual direction, like those two things that they're not the same thing, but they're obviously connected. So that's in 2025, one of the things I'm really gonna work on is what are some systems and processes that I can put into place to better help pastors connect with some mental health professionals, because I think it's...

Rob Paterson (37:13.64)
Mm.

Jason Allison (37:35.114)
just needed. And I think I've already secured a grant to help make some of this happen for for Convergement Atlantic pastors. So and I haven't even started trying yet. So yeah.

Rob Paterson (37:38.739)
Nice.

Courtney (37:39.851)
Nice.

Rob Paterson (37:45.331)
That's so good. And I love that title too, the not so great escape, because, you know, mean, statistically speaking, we know that pastors, that leaders in churches are not at all immune from unhealthy escape kind of things, unhealthy coping, you know, kind of things. And so, you know, really, I've always said this, I think, you know, everyone needs a care team.

Courtney (37:45.815)
Yeah.

Jason Allison (37:50.947)
Yeah.

Rob Paterson (38:12.977)
just like you would maybe have a pastor in your life or a doctor in your life, having a counselor in your life, having a whole care team of people that you can go to to make sure you're heading in the right direction in every area of life is super helpful.

Jason Allison (38:28.748)
Yeah, yeah. OK, let's hit the last number two and number one most downloaded. Number two is worship team coaching with Matt Miller. That was a great. It was a fun episode. Matt is an energetic guy. I can tell you that for sure. Yes, another nine. Yes, and he actually, you know, I firsthand and we talk about this in the episode, watched him take a church that was starting a revitalization process and.

Rob Paterson (38:43.411)
Yes, episode 89, another nine.

Courtney (38:46.358)
Yep.

Jason Allison (38:57.646)
their worship experience went from, preached the week before they started the process and the worship was painful. Like, mean, it's just, it was difficult when you're used to people staying on key. and then, you know, watching him come in and help them in that process. And he's actually on staff there and knowing that he, you know, he puts his money where his mouth is, right? He practices what he preaches. And so when he coaches another, you know, worship pastor, he's helping

do something that he's already doing. It's not something, it's not theory. It actually works. And then, I don't know, you want to say any more on that or you want to jump to the number one?

Rob Paterson (39:33.702)
Yep.

Rob Paterson (39:37.713)
Well, just a couple of sentences. We were at a pastor's meeting at their church and he gave you had a meeting right before it. We got there early. He gave me a tour around, you know, he was just sort of, I mean, I just, love him and I feel like he is just one of those guys who is solutions oriented, has good thoughts and processes. So, you know, if you're someone, you know, who's trying to develop not only, you know, in your

Jason Allison (39:41.915)
yeah, yeah.

Rob Paterson (40:06.417)
like coaching a worship leader or worship team, he'd be valuable. But I think even in general, he just has a lot of energy, insight and wisdom that could, could serve the church broadly. So look him up, go to that episode, check out the show notes, reach out to Matt and he would serve you and your church. Well,

Jason Allison (40:21.016)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Number one, most downloaded that that all of us, know.

Jason Allison (40:38.902)
I found new buttons with this new program. Future, Future Church with Derek Sanford was the number one most downloaded episode in 2024. Episode 84, if you're keeping track at home. That and I've had continuous conversations with Derek and so have you, Rob and Courtney. know you've been in some of those and I'm actually working with him and some other stuff and this Future Church idea. Just

Courtney (40:41.269)
new buttons.

Jason Allison (41:08.152)
phenomenal stuff. I have so much respect for Derek and the work that he's done. And I mean, he's the type guy that like you just reach out. I mean, I know it's he's at a mega church and it's been there for 30 years. He's my age, which makes me feel really inadequate in so many ways. But, you know, he's just doing so much in the realm of leadership and really casting this disciple making vision for for churches, because that is the future church, you making disciples. And so

Courtney (41:22.324)
If

Rob Paterson (41:31.603)
Hmm.

Jason Allison (41:37.518)
I love that conversation. always do. Anytime we get to hang out with Derek, it's fun. But yeah, I don't know.

Rob Paterson (41:45.809)
Yeah. So I think that it's so cool. The story that you and I have heard Derek tell now a number of times is that like he, somebody said something about like really shifts in the church and Derek's thought was, yeah, that's really great. think whoever, you know, follows me should do some of those things. And then after saying that he really kind of felt conviction and leading and whatever, like, man, I've been here forever.

I have the relational capital, the change in my pocket to be able to do some of these things. If I wait and let my successor do that, you know, it might kill that person. so Derek bit the bullet and really his great church, Grace Church up in Erie, Pennsylvania, you know, has been in this process of really retooling from an attractional model church to something that makes disciples so that people within a hundred miles

in every direction of their church can hear about Jesus, you know, where they live, work, learn and play. And I love that, you know, like he's kind of, like you said, Jason, putting his money where his mouth is and actively leading the church that he has kind of been given responsibility for in this season of life. I can't say it enough. I love Derek as well. So before we end today,

Jason Allison (43:10.508)
Yeah. Well, hey, real quick, Rob, real quick, just there. So Derek has actually started a podcast and they've done eight or 10 episodes and it's about their journey of refocusing their church. And it's called Reinventing Church with Derek Sandford. I would encourage our listeners to go look that up. It's it's worth it's worth the listen. And Derek's just fun to hang out with. OK, sorry. Go ahead, Rob.

Rob Paterson (43:14.481)
I do think that we... go ahead.

Rob Paterson (43:39.91)
Yeah, no, no, I think we said this at near the beginning. You know, Courtney was kind of whining about not like being in any of these episodes at all. But there was an episode that did get a lot of traction that was Courtney's brainchild. She had said some things and we were like, we got to talk about this on air. Courtney, why don't you share a couple of things just about that episode? Cause that was a great episode and people continue to ask about it. It's probably going to be on the list next year.

Jason Allison (43:40.13)
Continue on.

Courtney (43:41.121)
Thank

Courtney (43:46.443)
Yes.

Courtney (44:07.413)
Which one is it? it the Church Lady faith or the Stranger Things?

Jason Allison (44:07.419)
yeah.

Rob Paterson (44:11.091)
I think Stranger Things, but I think both of those were great.

Jason Allison (44:13.356)
Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney (44:14.123)
Yeah. No, I think Stranger Things, you're right. I think we got to do a follow-up episode on that one. So if you guys want to check out Stranger Things, that's where we kind of talk about what scholars like Michael Heiser called the unseen realm, how that realm of the spiritual actually affects our everyday lives and not even our everyday, not just our everyday lives, but even our Sunday experience, week in and week out, and how that's how the church traditionally thought about the Sunday experience, the meeting of heaven and earth.

was what was happening on Sunday mornings. So we talked about that in Stranger Things and dropped a lot of books that, you know, I would suggest checking out to go and read if you want to know more about that kind of cool stuff. But probably the book that I think is the most. go ahead.

Jason Allison (44:56.69)
By the way, that just so you know, Courtney, is, of course, episode 99. So. Yes, and and in the show notes, I have links to all of the books that you mentioned and probably the one that you're about to say. So go ahead.

Courtney (45:04.349)
yes. Perfect. Yes.

Rob Paterson (45:05.299)
That's so funny.

Courtney (45:15.307)
Well, we had the Michael Heiser one unseen realm is a great one to start with. But I was going to say one that has dropped at the end of this year after we filmed or recorded that episode is living in wonder by Rod Dreher. So if you want to kind of see how to apply that in your church lives, how to kind of apply that in your spiritual life, I would start with that book. And Jason's holding it up right now. You can't see it probably, but living in wonder by Rod Dreher.

Rob Paterson (45:39.539)
.

Jason Allison (45:43.244)
Yes. No, that's good. Yeah, it was a lot of fun talking about that because we, you know, we just dove into some things that I would definitely got to have a follow up. Maybe maybe in January we'll we'll do a follow up conversation around that. Yeah.

Rob Paterson (45:47.571)
.

Rob Paterson (45:57.011)
Yeah, you know, and I think too, we need to do like, because we always do this, we're all very voracious readers. We probably ought to do like a month where we like talk about some of our favorite current books that have been shaping us. I think that would be really, I mean, when someone tells me that I always buy the book, but sometimes it sits in a stack for a long time till I actually have the time to get to it. And so if ministry people could hear like little

Courtney (46:13.708)
Yes.

Jason Allison (46:16.578)
you

Rob Paterson (46:27.119)
mini book reports on some great books so they can get the gist of them that could be a real helpful thing too.

Courtney (46:33.025)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (46:33.186)
Yeah, almost a audio annotated bibliography of books we're reading. Yeah.

Courtney (46:38.412)
Yes.

Rob Paterson (46:39.677)
That sounded way better than Book Report. Yeah, agreed.

Courtney (46:41.643)
Mm-hmm.

Jason Allison (46:41.998)
Yes, yeah, well we have loved every minute of this year spending with you Courtney we are our podcast is better because you have joined the hosting team So thank you for being a part of it and and Rob you you had quite the year in 2024 with you know, all the new hips and everything that you swapped out and so

We that was a journey. I know I I'm so honored that I get to go on that journey with you. And so twenty twenty four has been an interesting year, but it's also been a year that I will always think of. Hey, I got to spend time with some really great people that I love dearly. And so for all our listeners, we love you and we are so happy that you choose again to spend a few minutes of your week with us.

and we are honored that you would do that. We do have one request that you would share the podcast so that others could maybe join in and we would love your feedback. We have ways for you and the show notes. There's a way to actually text us. You can reach out via email via the website and the website's the church talk project.com. So we'd love to just hear from you and maybe give us some ideas in 2025. What would you like to be talking about? And

Join us in this conversation about church where we can engage, equip, and encourage pastors and leaders all over the globe. Have a wonderful week. We'll see you next year.